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Question for any university employees

133 replies

MumblesParty · 28/01/2025 21:12

Just reading the news about Cardiff uni, among others, having to make redundancies and cut courses. This is apparently due to dropping numbers of international students. Students tuition fees are £9500 per year. They have about 9 hours of lectures per week. Can anyone explain where the costs are? I’m not being argumentative, I would genuinely like to know why it costs so much to run a university. I’ve googled, and it seems the biggest cost is teaching. But I know lecturers aren’t paid much. So where does the money go?

OP posts:
GinForBreakfast · 28/01/2025 22:15

So people really exist who can't fathom why universities are in trouble? Or that contact hours is a very small part of the value of a university education?

If it was just as easy as putting on a few lectures it would be easy. But as others have said, students also expect (and deserve) tutor office hours, careers support, placements, a year abroad option, wellbeing support, extracurricular opportunities, libraries, labs, other specialist learning facilities, field trips, guest lectures, sports and societies, a student union with officers and election, class reps, student entrepreneurship support, accommodation support, student finance support, bursaries, scholarships, a hardship fund, visa support, IT support, disability support, digital learning resources, student records, assessments marked and feedback given, exams arranged, marked and feedback given, extenuating circumstances considered, graduations, an alumni association ...

Plus all the marketing and comms, open days etc. to get them there in the first place

They want universities to have excellent, modern facilities and shiny new buildings.

They want universities to have environmental sustainability and diversity policies and action plans. Universities need student disciplinary panels, to constantly review policies and processes and procedures to deal with, for example AI.

They have all the costs of a large business, wages (set nationally), NI, pensions, staff training and development, buildings and estates, utilities, professional fees, insurance...

The government has another huge raft of stipulations including an enormous access and participation plan, a myriad of reporting, research, business and civic impact....

Everything has a cost attached.

Heyjoni · 28/01/2025 22:31

I agree with you wholeheartedly @GinForBreakfast, however I can understand why some people don't realise universities are in trouble. I reckon most parents of today's students would themselves have gone to uni in the 90s. Things were so different then and so they probably think it's still like they remember. But universities are very different places now.

zzpleb · 28/01/2025 22:34

Heyjoni · 28/01/2025 22:12

VCs salaries and pensions. At my university no more contributions could be paid into the VC's pension pot because it was full. Can you imagine your pension pot being full up? No, me neither.

That happened at my previous university. The VC was then paid a cash sum instead, in lieu of the missed pension contribution. If I remember correctly it was £45k. More than my annual salary.

But employer pension contribution for all staff in a defined benefit scheme is around 20%, if not more.

IT and tech is a big cost that people don't realise. Software licences and not just for MS Windows etc: the student records system, finance, HR, Estates systems, VLE (virtual learning system) with ever expanding functionality such as online submission and anti plagiarism software, library catalogue, ID system. Hosting of all those systems. An army of IT staff to maintain it. AV equipment in all teaching rooms has become standard: teaching podiums and ceiling projectors. Maintenance contracts for them. Replacing the equipment every 4 years or so. At one point replacement bulbs for ceiling projectors could cost over £100. Hopefully they're cheaper now.

Library licences for online resources, databases and journals. Just because they're intangible doesn't mean they're not expensive.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

PicturePlace · 28/01/2025 22:36

If only. Automatic progession past lecturer grade is a thing of the past at many universities now, and it's based on "business needs" not merit in some cases. Reader doesn't exist everywhere; associate prof is senior lecturer scale for some. Profs are well paid as long as they keep meeting their targets.

I didn't say progression to SL was automatic. It is relatively easy though, for anyone with any amount of get up and go.

I know that Reader doesn't exist everywhere. That's why I wrote Reader/AP. The salary bands I describe are pretty universal, though different names are used for the bands.

In essence: £38-56k is easy (almost everyone will attain this in their career), AP is harder, and then around 10% of UK academics are Professors, so it's not bad at all. And Profs are well paid, regardless of targets. They just don't move up to the next band unless they make very good progress.

PicturePlace · 28/01/2025 22:37

Kelta · 28/01/2025 22:12

we have professors on well over £100k

We have a few of those. Starting salary for Prof A1 is just under £70k.

PicturePlace · 28/01/2025 22:38

Even roles such as provost are over £200k

No they're not. Provost/Dean roles are £105-£120 starting salary.

RenovationNightmare · 28/01/2025 22:39

It's a wide range of costs - from student support and services to maintenance and increases in salaries.
UCL spends around £48 million a year (2023-24) on energy and more than 50% of this cost is for heating, cooling and ventilation.
I had about as many contact hours as a social science undergraduate many moons ago but the sad reality is that £9,000 doest buy the same as it did years ago.

PicturePlace · 28/01/2025 22:39

£38k isn't always starting salary, I've seen much lower.

It is the bottom of the nationally agreed pay scale for lecturers.

Kelta · 28/01/2025 22:39

PicturePlace · 28/01/2025 22:38

Even roles such as provost are over £200k

No they're not. Provost/Dean roles are £105-£120 starting salary.

Provost at our university is on double that

PicturePlace · 28/01/2025 22:40

It's taken me over a decade and I'm not on 56k as a senior lecturer

Yes, that is the top of the SL scale, you will automatically increment up to that.

ClioMuse · 28/01/2025 22:41

Overthebow · 28/01/2025 21:29

That seems extortionate for only 9 hours of lectures a week. The courses which have 28 hours of lectures a week cost the same. I had lectures almost full time, plus lots of fieldwork trips included and it cost no more than other degrees with way less teaching time. Is it worth it?

This is utterly ridiculous. Humanities courses cost much less (I was a history lecturer and am now in professional services)

PicturePlace · 28/01/2025 22:41

What do you mean without much effort?

I mean that doing the basics of your job plus some extra, easily attainable bits, will get you SL. Almost everyone will attain this.

Heyjoni · 28/01/2025 22:41

Agree @zzpleb IT and tech is a huuuuge cost.

Especially when a uni pays an absolute fortune to a tech company for a system that isn't fit for purpose and doesn't work efficiently. Just had to vent a little there...

Looksgood · 28/01/2025 22:41

PicturePlace · 28/01/2025 22:36

If only. Automatic progession past lecturer grade is a thing of the past at many universities now, and it's based on "business needs" not merit in some cases. Reader doesn't exist everywhere; associate prof is senior lecturer scale for some. Profs are well paid as long as they keep meeting their targets.

I didn't say progression to SL was automatic. It is relatively easy though, for anyone with any amount of get up and go.

I know that Reader doesn't exist everywhere. That's why I wrote Reader/AP. The salary bands I describe are pretty universal, though different names are used for the bands.

In essence: £38-56k is easy (almost everyone will attain this in their career), AP is harder, and then around 10% of UK academics are Professors, so it's not bad at all. And Profs are well paid, regardless of targets. They just don't move up to the next band unless they make very good progress.

I can accept that things are the way you describe them at some institutions - I've worked at a fair range. Maybe you could do likewise and accept that there is huge variation in the sector? Your "get up and go" comment really isn't applicable everywhere.

No, the salary bands you have described aren't universal.

Profs can of course lose their professorships altogether if they don't make their targets - happens at my place.

You are simplifying and generalising a lot there.

Wendolino · 28/01/2025 22:43

Senior management teams earn huge salaries. Most departments are top heavy- lots of managers with interesting, made up titles doing made up jobs because they're good at sucking up till their face fits.
Apart from that and the cost of utilities, maintenance, etc., there are the vanity projects beloved of the VCs and the CEOs.

Happily retired (and VR taken) ex Russell Group scientist.

PicturePlace · 28/01/2025 22:43

Provost at our university is on double that

Some provost roles are more akin to DVC roles, others more akin to Dean roles - different naming conventions.

Artyblartfast · 28/01/2025 22:43

PicturePlace · 28/01/2025 22:39

£38k isn't always starting salary, I've seen much lower.

It is the bottom of the nationally agreed pay scale for lecturers.

Ours is lower. I just checked a current job advert.

murasaki · 28/01/2025 22:44

Heyjoni · 28/01/2025 22:41

Agree @zzpleb IT and tech is a huuuuge cost.

Especially when a uni pays an absolute fortune to a tech company for a system that isn't fit for purpose and doesn't work efficiently. Just had to vent a little there...

Haha, I so recognise this.

Spirallingdownwards · 28/01/2025 22:45

boys3 · 28/01/2025 21:42

increased pension contributions

although @Spirallingdownwards in 2023–24 the Universities Superannuation Scheme (USS) has been revalued and contributions reduced for both members and employers. From the annual accounts perspective, this will have lowered staff costs (very often one of the most significant costs, if not the most significant cost, for most) in USS institutions.

Yes but they know have to offer a pension to ALL staff who have worked for more than 3 months whereas previously they didn't. Every cleaner, every cafe worker, every junior admin staff etc.

SerenityNowSerenityNow · 28/01/2025 22:46

GinForBreakfast · 28/01/2025 22:15

So people really exist who can't fathom why universities are in trouble? Or that contact hours is a very small part of the value of a university education?

If it was just as easy as putting on a few lectures it would be easy. But as others have said, students also expect (and deserve) tutor office hours, careers support, placements, a year abroad option, wellbeing support, extracurricular opportunities, libraries, labs, other specialist learning facilities, field trips, guest lectures, sports and societies, a student union with officers and election, class reps, student entrepreneurship support, accommodation support, student finance support, bursaries, scholarships, a hardship fund, visa support, IT support, disability support, digital learning resources, student records, assessments marked and feedback given, exams arranged, marked and feedback given, extenuating circumstances considered, graduations, an alumni association ...

Plus all the marketing and comms, open days etc. to get them there in the first place

They want universities to have excellent, modern facilities and shiny new buildings.

They want universities to have environmental sustainability and diversity policies and action plans. Universities need student disciplinary panels, to constantly review policies and processes and procedures to deal with, for example AI.

They have all the costs of a large business, wages (set nationally), NI, pensions, staff training and development, buildings and estates, utilities, professional fees, insurance...

The government has another huge raft of stipulations including an enormous access and participation plan, a myriad of reporting, research, business and civic impact....

Everything has a cost attached.

ALL of this.....

Then thrown in the fact that tuition fees haven't risen with inflation and unfavourable government policy making the UK a less attractive study option for international students then you start to understand the issues.

Artyblartfast · 28/01/2025 22:46

PicturePlace · 28/01/2025 22:40

It's taken me over a decade and I'm not on 56k as a senior lecturer

Yes, that is the top of the SL scale, you will automatically increment up to that.

I am sure there must be some differences. Just checked ours and top for SL is lower. I'd have to get principle lecturer to go higher as it goes into a different band, and for reasons I won't go into, this is virtually impossible for me at our institution.

Kelta · 28/01/2025 22:48

PicturePlace · 28/01/2025 22:43

Provost at our university is on double that

Some provost roles are more akin to DVC roles, others more akin to Dean roles - different naming conventions.

agreed. At our university the incumbent is provost and Deputy VC.

Deans are on less (although well into six figures)

PicturePlace · 28/01/2025 22:48

I can accept that things are the way you describe them at some institutions - I've worked at a fair range. Maybe you could do likewise and accept that there is huge variation in the sector? Your "get up and go" comment really isn't applicable everywhere.

It is. Almost all academics will end up at SL level. It is really odd that you think otherwise. Do you really know anyone who you think will spend their whole career at L level?

Profs can of course lose their professorships altogether if they don't make their targets - happens at my place.

It does, aye.

CissOff · 28/01/2025 22:48

I know an excellent lecturer at Cardiff Uni (for none of the courses listed as being at risk) who is completely burnt out and disillusioned by the whole thing now. They’ve been looking to get out for a while now but are so worn down they don’t have the bandwidth to focus any real energy on it 😞

Heyjoni · 28/01/2025 22:53

My uni is about to make redundancies and cut courses just like Cardiff. They haven't officially announced it yet though. It's a well known established university with a strong reputation. Many mumsnetters kids are probably there. Things look great on the surface but behind the scenes it's a different picture.

Higher education always used to be one of the UK's big selling points but the wheels are coming off.