Prevent - there are more children like Rudakubana

[noblegiraffe]

I just read this interesting and worrying article about the increase in children being referred to Prevent but not getting support from them due to lack of terrorist ideology.

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/school-prevent-referrals-rise-but-fewer-get-support/

I can see that if Prevent resources are geared to children who are being groomed into jihadist ideology or white supremacy then they wouldn't necessarily be able to tackle someone who just wants to go on a killing spree. However it is clear that if violent tendencies and posing an obvious risk do not meet the threshold for Prevent support, then we either need a different agency to deal with these troubled children, or Prevent needs to widen its remit.

If Rudakubana phoned Childline aged around 12 to say he wanted to kill people, if social services were involved, if CAMHS was involved, if there were enough concerns that he was repeatedly referred to Prevent, then clearly there was need for a type of support that wasn't on offer.

The article says "In the year to April 2024, two in five school referrals were found to involve a vulnerable child, but one deemed not to be driven by a terrorist ideology.
That meant more than 1,000 cases from schools were classed as “vulnerability present but no ideology or CT [counter-terrorism] risk” – an increase of 140 per cent since before Covid."

"Just 8 per cent of all school referrals in the year to April 2024 resulted in a decision to give the child specialised support through Prevent"

Then what on earth is happening with the other 92%?

No, do you?

That sounds incredibly difficult.

Was there a specific programme he was on or treatment plan that could have been implemented in Rudakubana's case?

@MadeInBarnstaple it's unbelievable isn't it.

Touch wood neither has happened at my dc school.

Exactly

And as I keep saying that is replicated all the time for lots of children (and adults actually, who carry weapons, deal drugs, make threats, commit criminal damage. The list is endless.

With respect, this monster was receiving CAHMS support for 3/4 years before disengaging [I agree CAMHS is dire generally but not sure if that is relevant in this case]. Social services were involved, police were involved (parents contacted them 4 times!), Childline were involved and Prevent (3 referrals). He was somewhat under the radar educationally, didn't attend special school for 10 months, before said school decided they had better ask police to do a welfare check (which was declined).
He has a brother who was a model student, let's hope he doesn't get blamed as have the parents in some quarters, with father's photograph being on public display. Brianna Grey's Mother said the parents of her child's murderers were as much victims ... perhaps these parents are also? Few want to think this, it would appear.
There will be an enquiry. Nothing will change, recommendations will be brushed under the carpet (as per one hundred plus in grooming gangs' enquiry!).
RIP little girls and peace to their families and also the survivors.

@soupyspoon what do you suggest

@ByQuaintAzureWasp the more I'm reading about the suposed interventions and parents calling the police to no avail I'm sure they felt utter despair as well.

@noblegiraffe I think the pre mediated attack sneaking into his old school with names on a hockey stick to damage them was a missed opportunity but a poster assures me this level of premeditated sneaky attack is very common

I’m undecided. I understand the principled arguments about civil liberties but it would be helpful to know more about the clinical evidence base for triggers and probabilities for people with this profile committing violence.

Doctors are able to section people if they believe they are at risk of harm/harm to others so it is possible to identify thresholds and build in safeguards. Again I’m not assuming it’s the way to go but I’m not sure it should be off the table as a matter of principle.

@EuclidianGeometryFan he had committed crimes and was clearly deranged.

Many of these "loner, misfit young men" are autistic individuals who struggle to cope with being in a social environment. The vast majority of them do not have a violent bone in their body - they just cannot handle the social and sensory aspect of going to school/college etc.

Programmes trying to force them into such environments would ultimately backfire.

Here is the Jonty Bravery SCR for those that are interested. Interestingly even on the first page it highlights the issue of PD not being diagnosed earlier (as its best practice) and consideration of that being reviewed/different

https://hflscp.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/david_serious_case_review_-_april_2021.pdf

I made really long posts setting out what I suggest I cant keep repeating and no idea what page they're on now, read the thread.

For the first time this thread has thrown a light on something which seems to make sense:

Autistic people can fixate about things. Utterly obsess about them and blow them out of all proportion. AR was worried about his TikTok account and seemed to think the police would be able to delete/modify it somehow, but the only way he could access the police, as he saw it, was to commit a heinous crime. So he did.

It is horrible twisted logic but something about his actions made sense TO HIM.

I suspect this is everything to do with profound neurodivergence, and then layered with a system that failed him terribly, and traumatised care givers with ESOL far away from their community trying to wrestle through this.

I don’t think he’s a monster or evil. I think he has been terribly terribly failed, and the outcome is the tragedy of the deaths of those children.

Which is why all the research says that people/children with ND shouldnt be sectioned/very strong focus on preventing detention for them

And while this isnt exactly related, this article sets out the other side to the argument that some of us have been putting forward, which of course Im sympathetic to. Theres no ideal here.

https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/2021/april/%E2%80%9Cbarbaric-and-inhumane%E2%80%9D-care-%E2%80%9Cgenerating-trauma%E2%80%9D-disabled-children

@noblegiraffe will message you.

A child coming onto a school site intending to attack particular students isn't especially rare, no.

No one is sectioned because they pose risk to others, that is a criminal justice route.

Someone might have risk to their life AND others AND have a treatable MH illness which meets the threshold. They also need to be 'ill' at the time.

In this case we dont know if he was diagnosed with any illness, being open to CAMHS is a bit ambiguous. We dont know if he was considered ill. We also dont know, if like in other cases his threats and obsessions were seen as just for effect or low risk or part of his ASD and how he was communicating

I know its a bit of a joke on this forum but you'll hear people refer to 'all behaviour is communication' in professional circles at times. I dont subscribe to that but Im an outlier.

A lot of therapists might have looked at his behaviour and said he was traumatised, crying out for help, vulnerable etc etc. (Im only going on interactions over the years for similar children)

Must have misquoted - I’m sorry. I sounds incredibly stressful and awful for you and your family.

Im not in the camp of these people are “evil” it feels to me like a systems failure. Not to be nosy and understand if you don’t want to but I’m interested in any insights you have about how what works and what might need to change.

This was discussed on the first page of this thread - he had no mental illness.
Being violent and criminal does not necessarily mean mentally ill.

@noblegiraffe that's not quite what I said.
He had been excluded from this school and dressed up in his old uniform to sneak in to cause harm which he did.

That's very different from a pupil in the school coming into to pick up an argument or beef with someone?

@noblegiraffe said on the first page:
The barrister for the defence said "There is no psychiatric evidence that could suggest a mental disorder."

Correct. Now

But he was open to CAMHS for many years, we dont know what for. CAMHS are notorious for not providing a diagnosis, being wooly about exactly what is 'wrong' with someone.

As with the SCR above, the lack of diagnosis is problematic, as with the research article I posted, what is considered a MH disorder is problematic and ever changing.

The upshot is, no he wouldnt have been sectioned, some posters are really struggling to comprehend this and I was setting out the whys and wherefores of that (for the umpteenth time)

Family breakdown respect and lack of discipline.
Lack of religion definitely not. Religion causes trouble and fighting in itself.
If people like him where so disturbed and unhappy woth their life, why don't they take their own life rather than other people's.
Put themselves out of their misery so to speak.

Ah sorry. My point isn’t about what could have been done within the existing system but whether it would be possible to have a similar system of controls. It might not be but and it it might also be the case that it’s undesirable but I’m curious to know more.