Prevent - there are more children like Rudakubana

[noblegiraffe]

I just read this interesting and worrying article about the increase in children being referred to Prevent but not getting support from them due to lack of terrorist ideology.

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/school-prevent-referrals-rise-but-fewer-get-support/

I can see that if Prevent resources are geared to children who are being groomed into jihadist ideology or white supremacy then they wouldn't necessarily be able to tackle someone who just wants to go on a killing spree. However it is clear that if violent tendencies and posing an obvious risk do not meet the threshold for Prevent support, then we either need a different agency to deal with these troubled children, or Prevent needs to widen its remit.

If Rudakubana phoned Childline aged around 12 to say he wanted to kill people, if social services were involved, if CAMHS was involved, if there were enough concerns that he was repeatedly referred to Prevent, then clearly there was need for a type of support that wasn't on offer.

The article says "In the year to April 2024, two in five school referrals were found to involve a vulnerable child, but one deemed not to be driven by a terrorist ideology.
That meant more than 1,000 cases from schools were classed as “vulnerability present but no ideology or CT [counter-terrorism] risk” – an increase of 140 per cent since before Covid."

"Just 8 per cent of all school referrals in the year to April 2024 resulted in a decision to give the child specialised support through Prevent"

Then what on earth is happening with the other 92%?

Do you know how many neurodivergent children are not accessing education at the moment because their needs cannot be met? Maybe the government needs to start there.

There are also many children whose needs aren't being met because they:

Have English as an additional language
Are young carers
Living in poverty
In the care system
Move house frequently
Victims of abuse
Are bullied
Have a physical disability

I'm not saying all these children will go on to become violent, because obviously they won't, but when you look at the huge swathes of children who need help and are not getting it, you do start to wonder how society might be different if all children started from a level playing field.

There seems to be a lot of arguing on this thread about whether it would be acceptable for a child of 13 + to be locked up . What stands out to me is that the professionals . Social workers did not feel safe with him. How many children do social workers say that about? He should not have been walking the streets and any children that intimidate adults let alone other children should have their liberty taken away in my view.
Also why was the living room his bed room ? Why was it just left for him to be in. Where was the Mum in all this if she stayed at home.

There seems to be a lot of arguing on this thread about whether it would be acceptable for a child of 13 + to be locked up

No, I think everyone accepts that sometimes children need to be locked up, for example if they have committed a heinous crime, like the Bulger killers.

What is being disputed is if it is acceptable for a child who has not committed a heinous crime to be locked up forever with no plan on working towards their release, to prevent them possibly committing one.

They wouldn't necessarily need to be locked up forever, just until a robust risk assessment found that they were okay to release, perhaps with a tag or probation or something, e.g. maybe after a decade or two.

But the question is how can we lock up someone before they have committed a crime, if they have no mental illness so can't be 'sectioned'.

The issue may be with the defining of mental illness - if it is defined by whether there is a treatment, that is putting the cart before the horse. If a treatment became available for personality disorder (not currently a mental illness), then it would become a mental illness.

Or, rather than expand the limits of mental illness and put the burden on the NHS, should we be treating it as a criminal matter? Should there be a way to lock up someone in the criminal system based on a risk assessment, before a serious crime is committed? Then the burden is on the police and courts, not the NHS.

You think a child of 13 should be locked up for a decade or two?

I think part of the problem is that for children like AR who are autistic but don't fit the criteria for a special school there is no option other than mainstream. They then struggle to fit in because they are different, considered weird and often bullied. Teachers are not trained in dealing with ASD so the teenager can feel isolated, angry, frustrated. If they haven't been taught to seek an outlet for that anger and frustration then it festers and like AR they become a ticking timebomb.

I think there should be schools for children who struggle in mainstream but don't fit the criteria for a special school, with teachers qualified in ND.

You think a child of 13 should be locked up for a decade or two?

If a risk assessment shows a high probability that they will commit murder, then yes.

When do you think Axel Rudakubana would have met the threshold of that risk assessment?

I have no idea - I have not looked into the details of the case, and I am not a psychiatrist or social worker or other relevant professional.

True, there must be 100's of thousands of them. Knife carrying and associated crime is rife amongst teens. The trick is knowing which might go on to kill/hurt people. And discouraging the carrying of knives obviously.

@2dogsandabudgie I thought AR's Diagosis has been a recent thing not whilst he was at school?

All 'special schools' have different criteria and there are schools for students who are neurodivergent. My sons attended different ones in my local area. With specialised teachers and help.

My view is that these schools are not easily accessible and you have to fight to get a place and really know your stuff (or people that can help you)

I regularly teach children where it's just too little too late. Parents have been dissuaded or disengaged with process of diagnosis and don't know these schools exist.

That's just my opinion though.

Kid in Wales today in court for stabbing two teachers and a fellow pupil. Dad "had not checked her bsg" before she left home and she had taken a tool/pen knife from his fishing bag.

And it goes on ... and on
.. and on

WTF! How did his brother turn out to be a model student then?

And it's reported his brother was a model student

I thought I read that he was diagnosed when he was 12/13. That report could have been wrong though as there has been a lot of inaccuracies in reporting.

My son (now adult) has autism and there was only one special school in my area which he didn't fit the criteria for even with a EHCP so he was in mainstream, although his secondary school was very supportive of pupils with SEN. There was a unit attached to another secondary school for pupils who were ND but there was only 20 places and it was very over subscribed.

Agree. Too few special schools, and mostly private/independent.

Government not reassuring me one iota by saying everyone will be fine in mainstream, with a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, I mean extra funding. I laugh hollowly after fighting the LA for 8 years and counting (and school for 3 years) tooth and nail to recognise needs and provide for them. Even with professional reports, parents are forced to wait and wait for provision, tribunals have queues a mile long, the law is flouted every hour of every school day. OFSTED said in recent report of one local LA SEND that there are 'systemic failings'. SEND system in a huge mess, add that to CAHMS and all the other decimated services.

The issue here isn't his psychiatric and mental / learning disorders. The NHS knows child refugees will often come with significant issues and is fairly prepared for it as we've seen this in the past. Most child with this boys issues don't try to hurt anyone other than themselves.

The issue here, specifically, is unrestricted access to the internet combined with absolutely no social services support for a child who was known to be planning to hurt others. I personally think if the carer / social worker of someone with a serious mental illness demands a sectioning based on their wanting to hurt someone then it should happen.

He wasn't a refugee. He was born and brought up in the UK.

We've just had another one. A boy killed his family and was stopped by the police from shooting up a primary school.

I would go so far as to say most people with severe mental health issues are intent on harming themselves not others but those that do have intent to hurt others should be locked up. I watched the panorama programme last night . It was very harrowing .Leanne was extremely brave along with the others and I agree what she says. Things need to change after this.

@username299 yes I saw that yesterday. Utterly horrific. Another case where parents had asked for help

I know. It's unbelievable. Thank God he was stopped.