Behaviour at Beavers

[KvotheTheBloodless]

I'm an assistant Beaver leader with a large pack (c.25). Kids are aged 6-8.

I'm really, really struggling with the behaviour of some of the kids - inability to listen, concentrate, stay still or keep hands/feet to themselves. When certain kids are there, the whole evening becomes focused on behaviour management rather than the planned activities.

The worst offenders, according to our records, have no SEND issues. Although I'm not a medic, I'd be amazed if that's the case, some of the behaviours are really extreme.

For those of you who volunteer with this age group, is this normal?

And those of you whose DC have behavioural issues due to SEN, do you generally inform the volunteer leaders that your DC have specific issues and provide strategies for coping with them?

I'm struggling to understand what's normal, and trying not to potentially discriminate against kids with disabilities, but it's sooooo hard sometimes!

Exactly. I really disagree with the "this is what boys are like" narrative. Boisterous and rowdy is fine, having zero respect for adults, not listening to the leaders and disrupting sessions is not fine. But DH and I both comment that behaviour has gone to shit and lots of parents just don't seem to want to deal with their children's poor behaviour. We see it all the time with parents of both boys and girls that are our DDs ages (Primary school).

I thought the testosterone surge at 4 was a myth made up by Steve Biddulph and there wasn't any evidence for it?

Anyway. Since ADHD is thought to affect about 5% of the population and autism somewhere around 1-3% depending on who you speak to it's highly likely that any average Beaver group is going to have some ND children. Probably more than average, given that parents of high energy, boisterous children are probably more likely to seek out an active club for them whereas a child who is more interested in solitary, quieter pursuits might prefer a different type of club.

So yes it probably is worth assuming that some of the DC in the cohort will be ND of some kind.

And then you will also have some natural variation as in some children in that age group will also struggle with impulse control and physicality particularly later in the day, even if they don't have a diagnosable condition.

And a lot of children with ND conditions don't get a diagnosis until later on - DS1 was only diagnosed age 10. DS2 is under assessment now and is already 6. We aren't in the UK, and waiting lists in the UK are much longer so you might be unrealistic hoping for a diagnosis by age 6, since it does not usually become apparent that a child is showing hyperactivity until they are significantly different from their peers (which isn't really clear until ~4/5 because all three year olds are mad with no attention span).

So I don't think parents are likely to be hiding things from you - it might be that it hasn't occurred to them, they are waiting to see if their child grows out of it, or they might be on a waiting list. But the fact that parents aren't hiding things doesn't mean there aren't additional needs.

Also there will be some children who are on the cusp, having some sensitivity/symptoms but not actually having a diagnosable condition - some of these will also feed off the environment/behaviour of others.

For that reason I'd probably look at management techniques which would help for that kind of thing anyway. It's not going to cause any harm to the ones who aren't that way inclined. For the DC who take up a lot of staff energy/attention it might be worth speaking to the parents in those cases to see if there is anything they can suggest or find helpful, or suggesting more support be in place when they attend.

SENDcast tends to be good - they are directed at teachers but have an approach that all teachers are SEND teachers because all classrooms are likely (statistically) to have at least a couple of SEND pupils.

I will look for more resources and send them.

Is it straight after school? Because DS used to do a beavers after school club that was indoors and it felt pointless. The kids just wanted to run.

Can you start the session with really active games to get their energy out?

I would agree that spending some active time at the beginning of the session to run off some energy is a good idea
I was once asked to observe a Beaver's session to offer some tips on managing behaviour. It was a mixed group but the majority were boys. Behaviour wasn't brilliant, but was typical of the age group. The two female leaders started the session. A few minutes in an older male leader appeared and began shouting, stopped the activity to harangue the children and generally behaved in a very authoritarian manner. He completely undermined the other leaders so there were no consistent strategies for leaders to use and establish with the children. In OP's position I would consider whether leaders are being consistent in managing behaviour and backing each other up.

I found similar with DD’s experience of beavers. She tried Rainbows, but our local group was very craft orientated & indoor based. She loved what beavers had to offer - lots of den building / hikes and general time outdoors. However, so many of the children were just disruptive (maybe SEN, maybe not). DD isn’t averse to ‘rowdiness’ - she loves a bit of rough & tumble, and most of her friends are boys. She just said it was getting very boring as they were just telling lots of them off all the time, and couldn’t get on with activities. I helped out quite a lot too - it was a nightmare for behaviour / generally not listening etc. DD gave up in the end as said it was pointless!

I used to be a Beaver leader (now at Scouts, where they're ever so slightly quieter)

Wet play at school was always the worst - no outdoor time running around wildly.

We'd break the hour down into chunks - mad runaround game, whatever activity we were doing, break for a drink, continue/different activity, game, end. That way they don't have to sit for too long (if it's a sitting down activity) and get lots of movement time. One rule was one at a time in the toilets - so hopefully no mucking about. Parents would be spoken to about behaviour if it was bad.

We had equal split of boys and girls, and they were all as rowdy when they were in the mood.

Spot the parents with kids who are badly behaved - "boys being boys"

No your kid just needs some discipline. Kids know right and wrong at that age.

My son is autistic with adhd and relatively high support needs. I spoke to multiple beavers leaders (there's about 8 within a 30 min radius) and their approaches to things like accessibility, behaviour etc. all varied massively. The leader who showed most understanding of neurodiversity (and able to actually demonstrate this rather than just talking a good talk) also had behaviour as a high priority. Fortunately my son is a big rule follower!

Our Scouts (Beavers, Cubs, Scouts, Explorers) are entirely outdoors in the woods. It tends to improve behaviour as the noise doesn't bounce around. Other than Explorers, we start with a high energy game for 10-15 mins. There is also a behaviour pyramid. Children without SEN, who get 3 warnings, lose the next session. This is a part of the risk assessment. There is usually a fire and tools so listening and following instructions is paramount.

While I agree that starting with a run-around game can be a great way to burn off some energy, we find at our beavers that starting with all the beavers coming in and standing quietly in a circle helps with behaviour as it sets the tone for the evening straight away. We used to let them run around until it was time to start, but when we changed to our current system, behaviour improved massively, I think because we are setting expectations right from the start. Once we have done the opening ceremony, then we'll play a run-around game.

This way the beavers know when they can be noisy, and when they can't, and don't tend to get too over-excited. We also have a yellow card/red card system - and run it with almost zero tolerance. If they get a yellow card for poor behaviour, they have to sit out for 5 minutes. If they get another in the same meeting, we speak to parents. If they behave all evening, they get a piece of pasta to put in a cup (one cup for each lodge) with a prize at the end of term for the lodge with the most pasta.

It's not perfect, but on the whole it does seem to work fairly well. Expectations are clear, and there are consistent consequences (good and bad!). And it's not just because it's a large group of boys. We do have a mixed group, and sometimes the girls are much noisier (oh god, the screaming!) than the boys!

I'm a leader for local beavers group with a fair split of boys & girls. Also plenty of leaders and parent helpers. Unfortunately behaviour is appalling despite it being a 'naice' area. We have some kids who outright refuse to sit in formation at the beginning of the session, who audibly fart and laugh about it while doing the promise, punch each other and it's awful. I'd say there's an obvious faction whose parents simply don't see them enough/give them any attention & they act up because of it.

We have one boy who's in wraparound 8-6pm everyday. Most days he has an activity 6-7, including beavers, and he's a nightmare. Thoroughly hard work, rude, combative, yet he laps up praise because he's just so used to not having anyone pay him the slightest attention.

We have a girl who's at the local private school and also in their wraparound and always has the grandad shuttling her around as mum is a barrister. She's a vindictive child and actively hurts other children. Unfortunately our main leader is a little more forgiving than I'd be!

I helped with Beavers before covid and it was really fine. The kids were very calm and sensible.

However, I've seen a lot of threads on MN saying that kids entering school now are really struggling to settle and behave sensibly. I think it's like the lockdown puppies - they have missed a lot of their early socialisation.

I wonder if it might be a good idea to accept that they just have delayed social development and go back to the earlier stages of training. I mean work with what you have, rather than with what you would expect to have.

Maybe you need the squirrel curriculum to work from initially?

Yes, it's a hard age group. I teach a martial arts group and it's a success if we get a decent 20 minutes out of them in an hours session.

Could be a number of things. My youngest was diagnoses asd and adhd when he was 7. Tbh my mum and the school noticed it before I did. I just thought it was boys being boys with load of energy. Parents may not realise yet, could be tiredness or pent up energy.

My eldest is almost 28 so was at beavers more than 20 years ago - this isn’t a new phenomenon. Beavers didn’t exist when I was little and Cubs started at age 8 whereas Brownies started at age 7. My mum’s friend was a Cubs leader in the 70s and she always said that boys at that age couldn’t sit still and lacked maturity, hence the later starting age. I don’t think things have changed much really.

I volunteer at brownies. We let them run around for the first ten minutes to get rid of over excitement etc. We then do an activity for half an hour, followed by snacks and then final 15 mins of organised games. It all works well and not a lot of bad behaviour.
The problem we do have, is whining: I don't like that game,it's not my favourite, I don't want to play it. I don't like these biscuits, I don't like that colour ball etc etc etc. It drives me mad.
We've also had some not prepared to come whilst it's cold. They'll come when it's warmer, but can we keep their places open for them?
Have other people had that?

Thanks for all the useful advice (except the nonsense from @KittenPause which I'll ignore).

When it's my turn to lead a session I usually go for something messy and fun, but I'd not considered the physical/active side of things being necessary early on in the session.

We don't have a large hut though, and I'm a bit scared to take some of the young people outside to the adjacent playing fields because what if they ran off and got lost?! It's dark outside at the moment.
If anyone has any suggestions for physical activities that can be done in limited indoor space I'd be very grateful for suggestions. I'll also get our leader to email parents to remind them to keep records up to date re: SEN, allergies etc.

I was a primary teacher when my DS was in Beavers and used to dread my turn at 'volunteering' I couldn't believe the behaviour. I was so tempted to just shout STFU! I knew most of the boys and there was no way they behaved like that in school.

I would implement a system as someone deserved with warnings etc
At the end of the day you are volunteers and it’s not school. They don’t have to be there and some kids shouldn’t ruin it for others.
We had some girls in our brownie group like that and my youngest won’t be going to that group because in my opinion the leader did not do enough about it and should have been informing the parents. They probably thought their kids behaved as angels there as no one told them. So behaviour never improved. I’ll be sending her to another group where I know the leaders are stricter.

I see people say stuff like that too but tbh I think it’s a load of rubbish and a poor excuse. Those children were tiny when Covid happened and by the time lockdowns were over would have been at the age to go to preschool etc naturally anyway so didn’t miss anything.
My daughter is this age and she was 1 in lockdown. It made zero difference to her. It’s not like she would have been at school. She was basically with us in the garden for a few weeks. Then by the summer stuff was opening up again and we were out and about!

I think leaders need to make it clear that they aren’t there to constantly manage bad behaviour and if a child has zero respect etc then they can find somewhere else to go if warnings etc are given and nothing changes. I do think a running about type of game at the start is pretty normal for these groups from when I’ve helped out and makes sense while people are arriving.

DD is a Young Leader at Beavers, DH is the lead Scout volunteer. Two of the four Beaver leaders are primary school teachers so do know how to corral a group of 6-8 year olds.

Like another PP said, they need to run of steam first. You need a good amount of adults/YL to keep the groups contained and focused. I helped out at a unit BBQ and got exhausted by just watching them.

They do a lot of different activities, everything from outdoors to cooking to arts/craft and the boys can equally well behave as the girls. The whole unit has a quite large number of girls in all section, so it is clearly working. DD enjoyed Scouting a lot more than Guides, I think it's more about how the group is lead and structured then "girls have to be overactive" to enjoy it.

Parents don't have to disclose any SEN but are encouraged as the leaders can then deal with it a lot better then seeing it as "naughty". SEN is not published to the rest of the parents, it's confidential.

i ran a group years ago and it was the same. We used to do fast paced activities to use the energy to start with. Its an age where there is such a variation in learning so sometimes some struggled to engage.

they had been to school all day and were often tired.

there were a couple with SEN and we took the lead from them with what they wanted to do. At times we didnt know if SEN but generally parents disclosed once child been for few weeks.

main thing kids were great with each other and loved coming.

My son has ASD and ADHD. We did inform the leader in advance and offered to volunteer to help and be 'there' (he has an EHCP at school). As it turns out, no need - he loves it and apparently behaves perfectly. I do think Beavers should be inclusive BUT if there are behavioural issues I also think a parent should stay as a sort of 1:1 or personal TA if needed; it's only an hour a week!

I agree that as an organisation run by volunteers, if your child has behavioural issues that are detrimental to the group and other children, YOU should be volunteering.

DS is in Cubs but quite a young pack.
As they're arriving the leader has 3 or 4 soft balls and they all run about for about 5mins while they talk to any individuals about badges by which time they've let off a bit of steam.
There's always a very active game as well as something more badge orientated.
Favourite games seem to be used as incentive for keeping focused and tidying up quickly.
Small children do need lots of exercise. Mine are noticeably happier of they're allowed to run around even if they sulk about being taken out.