Will the NHS recover? What happens if not?

[ilovemykids1]

As somebody with extreme health anxiety, seeing the collapse of the NHS is horrible and I get so scared of what's going to happen.

Do you think it can ever recover? How many years would this take? And if not, what would happen instead!?

I don't think that paying would necessarily cause people to make different lifestyle choices. There are still plenty of people in countries like the USA who smoke, don't exercise, are obese etc..

I’m surprised more people don’t drive to a/e -everyone has cars nowadays (or a neighbour or friend with one) but people are in queues of ambulances. Obviously if you’ve had a heart attack or similarly serious but seems odd.

I’m a HCP. I spent 20 years working for the NHS before switching to the private sector 8 years ago. No, I don’t think it can ever recover, nor do most of my colleagues. I find it telling that nearly all of our consultant surgeons have invested in private health insurance for themselves and their DC. I have Bupa for both myself and DD - it’s getting increasingly unaffordable but I genuinely wouldn’t feel comfortable or safe if we didn’t have it. Care in the NHS is no longer adequate

They'll be a combination of people who think ambulance will get them seen quicker. But the vest majority will be people who need proper ambulance care.

Every year there's ques of ambulances outside A&Es if they could dump the people in the waiting room and run to their next patients they'd do it. But the fact they are waiting probably means the people did actually need ambulance care.

Australia has abit of a mix - we have Medicare, which is like the nhs, but it doesn’t always fund the full cost of a doctors visit. I paid $85 to see my GP yesterday and I will get $40 as a rebate. If I see a specialist, it would cost $200ish and I would get maybe $80 as a rebate. Some doctors can choose to bulk bill, which means that there is no gap - or they might do this for low income or aged or children only. Hospital is completely free, unless you choose to go private. Private health insurance is subsidised by the government, and people on higher incomes actually have to pay extra to Medicare if they don’t have private health. Dental is not included at all, but councils do run clinics for school kids for free. Private health cover can also cover dental, optical ect but it’s typically again paying a significant gap payment, only a small amount is covered.

its sounds like the only way forward for the nhs is to include a payment. I can’t believe the stories I hear. Like people saying it’s weeks to see a GP. I phoned up my GP on Monday morning (after they were closed for
the Xmas break) and got an appointment Thursday. Prob could have got a sooner one but I need 2 for my son and I. And my GP is very popular, he has full books and doesn’t take on new patients.

Privatisation is already happening - the question is whether we embrace it and try to shape a system that ensures a basic level of care for all but allows some difference (which let’s be honest there is already a two tier system) or whether we bury our heads in the sand and try to maintain the free at point of care, same care for everyone ideal while it slowly grinds to a standstill and standards of care decline.

I work in global healthcare sector and the UK standard of care is rapidly declining relative to other western nations. If you have only ever had care in the uk you might not realise how bad it really is in comparison - frog in boiling water metaphor.

Yes, may be just may be see if some of the surgeries taken by NHS should really happened for free. Like every free thing it has been abused. I think it should be totally free after the age of 55 or for newborns for a year.
People talk about an aging population but people can get cancer since very young these days. Also, how about people who enter the country with pre medical conditions as a result of the rough life and lack of vaccination.

We do spend less per capita on healthcare than many other Western countries. Imagine what our healthcare system could be like if we funded it as well as France? Investing as much as Germany or Switzerland, would be even better, but I’m trying to be realistic.

Unfortunately, the NHS has been neglected for so long that it needs a massive capital investment to put it on a sustainable long-term footing. For example, our crumbling local hospital was on the list of hospitals the Tories promised to rebuild (with much fanfare), but they failed to allocate the budget for this, so it hasn’t happened.

We need to acknowledge that we can’t run the NHS on the cheap. Relying on staff feeling morally obliged to work multiple hours of unpaid overtime is not sustainable. Neither is cutting corners on computer systems, essential equipment or building maintenance.

I’m not convinced that adding more and more middlemen to the equation (in the form of privatisation) is helping. They all want their cut. Just look at how much money the NHS is forced to spend on private temporary staffing agencies. And not all of these agency staff have been vetted properly, so some turn out to be much less capable than their CVs would suggest. Just imagine if the NHS actually employed enough clinical staff and managed to retain most of them? Wouldn’t that be a great start?

Too many people and not enough resources. It’s very worrying indeed.

Sit in any A&E or GP surgery for half an hour to witness the hoards of people needing care who don’t and have never paid a penny into the system. The sooner it collapses and we can get a better system in place for those who do contribute, the better.

Literally this.

It probably can recover if massive reforms happen. Which may cost people more money, one way or another. Would people be happy with that, and how much more, 1% more tax, 10%, or more?

There have always been problems with bed pressures and long A&E waits, yes it is particularly bad at the moment. Even our GP has turned off the online enquiry form, which you can usually fill in and get a call back/appointment, for non-urgent problems, instead of waiting on the phone for hours, hopefully that is just a temporary thing.

Private insurance is of course an option, though I don't think there are in general private A&Es, there may be in a couple of areas, but few and far between and more like a private urgent treatment centre than a full A&E. The "problem" with private is that you're still paying the full amount of tax & NI that helps fund the NHS and other services which a lot of people don't agree with, as they're already paying enough tax.

The reports of what is happening in A&Es at the moment are horrible. Yes it has always happened but according to the news reports, is particularly bad this year.

*hordes!

How do you know these people have never paid a penny into the system?

And to hell with the hordes who need care but don't contribute right?

Look the system is broken and needs to be fixed but poor people are also entitled to healthcare. Or at least that's the least we should expect if we want to live in a caring and compassionate society.

Yes this.
I was very poorly indeed before Christmas and rushed in to hospital by ambulance. Spent 15 hours on a corridor and I was a priority for admission. A and E was like a war zone. And yes, it is astonishing the amount of people who have never contributed to the system . It’s been abused for way too long and is utterly unsustainable, regardless of how much money is thrown at it.

There does have to be a point where people start looking after their own health. We all know what it takes to be healthy, but so many people in this country inflict damage upon themselves (smoking, obesity etc) knowing that the NHS will pick up the bill. I understand mental health issues and all the rest of it underly sometimes but seriously this country has lost the plot

There are way way too many people here and we don’t have the resources. It’s as simple as that. I know of no other country that does this.
When it was first introduced it was a super idea but sadly has been abused to the maximum. It is completely unsustainable.

Its systems are a shambles, I had a letter come to book a test. I attempted to write what happened on here but it is so ridiculously complicated I gave up. Needless to say I had to have extra appointment's that were unnecessary as it doesn’t know it’s arse from it’s elbow.

That’s one issue, the next is people just abusing their bodies.

@bluejelly Ageing population is an issue, also obesity it’s linked to lots of cancer, type 2 diabetes which is 10% of the NHS budget. If you’re obese you need extra care if pregnant. Plus many other medical issues.

We've got fewer beds and a rising elderly population - the over 85's are intensive NHS users (understandably). I'm not convinced the private sector will want to take over the A&E departments or people with multiple long-standing illnesses who can only afford the bare minimum.

On top of that, there's a head-in-sand approach by governments and individuals alike about what needs to happen for a healthy old age. More social care, but also more preventative care, from diet to home standards. A lot of "frequent flyers" in the hospital (I hate that term) are due to a crap built environment where they insist they cope, fall over, stay overnight on the floor and get taken to the hospital.

Yes the idea that we are being “unfair” if we don’t treat any random person on the NHS for free is a complete joke

The EU countries with defined insurance programs would be 100% a better way than this crumbling model

It’s also down to the ‘Amazon prime’ mentality too.

I have so many people ask for ridiculous referrals on the nhs - x2 acne spots at 15 - mum wants a dermatology referral for roaccurane, no, no other treatment first. - ‘it might affect her self esteem or mental health’

ah yes those beloved words ‘my mental health’s affected’

what do you do?
the hard choice - point out the referral would be rejected/ discuss the guidance/ offer alternatives/ all in 10 minutes with a mum saying ‘you don’t understand her mental health will be damaged’ no it won’t. And then spend time answering the complaint or see yourself plastered all over Facebook for ‘denying her the medical help she needs’

the easy Choice - send a referral, let it get rejected but waste 100s of pounds on the admin, consultant time to reply, my time etc and inevitably still have the mum screaming about how no one cares on Facebook?

Honestly everyone needs a look at themselves!

We're already there.

OP, I think you probably need to get treatment for your anxiety ASAP

Step away from the news, it's not going to do you any good at all

Please, please trust me on this

I think both conservative and Labour have accepted it’s a shambles, but neither party has the balls to sort it. To sort it would mean changes from the bottom up, streamlining and yes using private hospitals to help out, procurement needs sorting, more doctors and nurses are needed, not woke manager jobs

However no party will do anything in case they upset the unions, which in Labours case would be very difficult to do, the staff and the public who seem to think throwing money at it is the way to go, rather than a full drains up on what exactly is wrong, what needs sorting, how and how quickly