If you’re management, would you allow staff to wfh full time in these circumstances? Advice needed…

[HaIfofmyheartisinHavana]

The company I work for is an exclusively online retailer along the lines of Amazon, ASOS etc. Very large national and international customer base.

The shift finishes in the middle of the night- between 2-2:30 a.m.

The role is entirely online based and involves staring at a screen in near silence for 5-8 hours. Communication within the team is mostly done through online messaging.

My team starts our shift in the same office as the daytime team of the same dept- but there are so few team members doing this shift that when the daytime team finishes at 10pm, those remaining have to log off, pack up all our stuff, physically leave the building and walk across a car park in the dark to a different building just so we aren’t left alone in a vast empty warehouse. The team members are all women.

When in the different building we have to occupy another daytime team (from a different dept)’s regular desks. Meaning any adjustments we make to seats or screens have to be undone at the end of every shift.

My team is not paid any more than the daytime team for working unsociable hours. The pay is marginally above NMW.

Almost all the team members live some distance from the office- between 1/2 hr to 1 hr drive.

Unlike the day teams, my team has to have our team meeting towards the end of the shift. It always runs over meaning we are leaving to go home even later. We are not paid any extra for this. The daytime has their meetings during their shift and they always leave on time.

There is no practical element to the role that necessitates physically being present in the office.

My dept head has been pushing me to get back to the office as soon as possible since before my maternity leave finished a few months ago. I have been allowed to wfh full time for the last 3 months and have to return to office working next week. Previously colleagues in the same team as me have been allowed to wfh full time after mat leave for up to a year.

I want to submit a flexible working request to be allowed to wfh continuously, but I’m 99% certain it’ll just be rejected outright- the justification for making us come to the office is simply “we are a hybrid business, nobody works from home full time”. Which in my opinion is not so much a justification as it is a different way of saying “because I said so”.

Therefore I need to make the application as strong as possible- pointing out that my performance whilst wfh these last few months has not suffered in the slightest as evidenced by my glowing end of year review, and highlighting the many proven detrimental effects that night shifts have on one’s health which the company (which purports to be supportive and really care about its people) would be at least slightly mitigating by allowing us to wfh.

Would be very grateful for all opinions and advice.

What's the turnover and recruitment like in those roles?

All of the team members have been there several years, the company is not looking to make any new hires AFAIK. It's certainly not a revolving door.

It's often not up to management. It's usually the CEO, business owner etc.

Definitely put in a flexible working request though.

By management I basically mean the powers that be/whoever it is that makes these decisions

That sounds like a role that would be ideal for permanent homeworking. What exactly is gained by having everyone in an office?

Plus it's concerning that you say you have a meeting that makes your shift run over without any extra pay. That shouldn't happen and if it means that your hourly rate for the time you actually work goes below NMW, its illegal, so worth working this out and bearing in mind when the rate increases in April.

Having to move desks and adjust chairs repeatedly is inefficient and a H&S issue if it's not done, as is the shiftwork - driving in the early hours is high risk for falling asleep. They're lucky that you've all kept at these jobs as long as you have, if someone left, I can see recruitment for replacement being quite difficult, from what you've said, it's not really an attractive offering.

Is there a union or other staff representation available who could advise? What do the other team members think? I'd definitely make a flexible working request and explain the above points. It just seems extremely bloody minded to have you in the office in the circumstances you describe but depending on their attitude to home working, they're the employer after all and it could be hard to challenge, depending on how far you're willing to push it. I assume that they're happy with your performance over the past three months?

Sounds like the perfect permanent WFH job, you could hold your meeting via Teams and then go straight to bed, nuts that they make you go in!

The other members of my team I think would jump at the chance to wfh permanently. The only real reason we're given for us having to go in is that the company is a hybrid business, and also they apparently think it's vitally important that we have time with the day team members (for a few hours) and each other in the office- but it has also been mentioned in the past that the daytime team would consider it unfair if we were allowed to wfh while they have to go into the office 🙄

Do you actually like your job? It sounds pretty miserable for not great pay. I think I'd be looking for another job or seeing if I could move to the daytime team.

I expect they'll reject your request on the basis that if they do it for you then they'll have to do it for your colleagues.

I don't mind the job- the work itself is easy if unstimulating, and the hours work around family and caring commitments. I'm just finding myself becoming more and more resentful of this requirement for us to come in to the office until two o clock in the morning for no good reason at all. I'm terrified of falling asleep at the wheel on the way home, and it seems to me that by insisting our team comes into the office the company is putting this baseless and arbitrary rule before our safety.

Could everyone WFH during those hours without waking other household members up?

Usually flexible working requests ask for the benefits to the business of your proposed working arrangement and ime the answer to that question usually gives you the back up to say no (ie there is no benefit to the business) so I would think about that and come up with a killer answer

tbh I can totally see how you can wfh fulll time but it sounds like the company is very much against this on principle, which makes it unlikely theyll take an exception

do bring up the other people who were allowed to wfh for a year after mat leave, unless that was something they’ve since changed policy on obviously

We all seem to manage it on the nights that we can wfh (weekends).

If the system works for the company at weekends, they why wouldn't it work in the week? Why do you work from home on the weekends?

I can’t get past you saying that people travel an hour to a job which pays Minimum wage …..like why 🤷‍♀️?? …. Get a job nearer home surely

I think it’s batshit that you can’t wfh already.

unfortunately I don’t think they will allow it because that would make it very difficult for the ones who did still have to come in. And then the daytime teams would complain but I’d argue there is a huge difference finishing at 10 to finishing at 2.30. I can’t believe you have team meetings in the middle of the night. Honestly I’d look for a less antisocial job. I work for a grown up employer that asks us to go in once or twice a week when convenient to us and leaves us to wfh the rest of the time.

Huge areas of the U.K. are pretty rural and sparsely populated it’s often very common for people to travel that distance for work

We just do... and the work still gets done every bit as efficiently as it does in the office

You are getting paid less than NMW which is illegal given the meeting time as well.

I'd propose a permanent change for the whole night team on the grounds of health and safety as well as saving time on commute in compensation for giving up your time for free for the meeting.

Just get a different job. It sounds awful.

So for some of us the journey should typically be about 40 minutes, but if say in winter the roads are icy or there are road closures at night, which is very often because that's when they do the resurfacing, then the diversions mean a longer journey. Or if you're starting at 6 then you have to get through rush hour traffic etc. so it can vary

Life, princess

With the overrunning team meeting, it usually only goes over by 10-20 mins, but when it's already 2 am that obviously makes a big difference, and I have never not once seen the daytime teams stay on so much as a minute past the end of their shift because of an over running team meeting, because they don't have them at the end of their shift. And those 10-20 minutes end up amounting to several hours when it happens every week.

Make your arguments. Ask them for policies re safety. Point out the wasted time moving buildings in the middle of the shift, and actually time how long it takes, including the time readjusting seats etc are end.
And whatever happens, stop staying late for the unpaid meetings. Just say “ my shift ends at 2 so I’m leaving now”. Your other colleagues will thank you.

My team is not paid any more than the daytime team for working unsociable hours. The pay is marginally above NMW.

I would be looking for a different job that is paid the same (or more) but is during the day and without 2am meetings!

Well that's your business reason. If not all works good at the weekend make them justify and explain why it wouldn't work in the week. Working the night shift is different from the day, that's their explanation to the day shift if they complain.

Could you ask for security for the car park at night. An extra cost they might not want to pay.