If you’re management, would you allow staff to wfh full time in these circumstances? Advice needed…

[HaIfofmyheartisinHavana]

The company I work for is an exclusively online retailer along the lines of Amazon, ASOS etc. Very large national and international customer base.

The shift finishes in the middle of the night- between 2-2:30 a.m.

The role is entirely online based and involves staring at a screen in near silence for 5-8 hours. Communication within the team is mostly done through online messaging.

My team starts our shift in the same office as the daytime team of the same dept- but there are so few team members doing this shift that when the daytime team finishes at 10pm, those remaining have to log off, pack up all our stuff, physically leave the building and walk across a car park in the dark to a different building just so we aren’t left alone in a vast empty warehouse. The team members are all women.

When in the different building we have to occupy another daytime team (from a different dept)’s regular desks. Meaning any adjustments we make to seats or screens have to be undone at the end of every shift.

My team is not paid any more than the daytime team for working unsociable hours. The pay is marginally above NMW.

Almost all the team members live some distance from the office- between 1/2 hr to 1 hr drive.

Unlike the day teams, my team has to have our team meeting towards the end of the shift. It always runs over meaning we are leaving to go home even later. We are not paid any extra for this. The daytime has their meetings during their shift and they always leave on time.

There is no practical element to the role that necessitates physically being present in the office.

My dept head has been pushing me to get back to the office as soon as possible since before my maternity leave finished a few months ago. I have been allowed to wfh full time for the last 3 months and have to return to office working next week. Previously colleagues in the same team as me have been allowed to wfh full time after mat leave for up to a year.

I want to submit a flexible working request to be allowed to wfh continuously, but I’m 99% certain it’ll just be rejected outright- the justification for making us come to the office is simply “we are a hybrid business, nobody works from home full time”. Which in my opinion is not so much a justification as it is a different way of saying “because I said so”.

Therefore I need to make the application as strong as possible- pointing out that my performance whilst wfh these last few months has not suffered in the slightest as evidenced by my glowing end of year review, and highlighting the many proven detrimental effects that night shifts have on one’s health which the company (which purports to be supportive and really care about its people) would be at least slightly mitigating by allowing us to wfh.

Would be very grateful for all opinions and advice.

What communication do you have with the day team and how can the wfh plan incorporate it, as it is one of the reasons given for needing to be f2f.

Is the business located far from residential areas for a reason eg the size of the site? If it is then maybe a business case that no commute can make you as or more efficient. If not then can’t they say you needed to consider the commute when applying?

Do you get the proper breaks (and time to take them? And correct hours over a week. If you do then the company may argue you have enough time to rest and asleep to do a commute without falling asleep.

If it doesn’t go fully remote then whether you individually wfh or not can you ask for the meeting to be at the point when you move warehouse. There is obviously a natural break in your actual work so maybe after the ones in office log on?

God I would hate this!

No talking, driving at 2am in the morning

it sounds like the job from hell

Also why don’t you do you meeting during the working hours instead of at the end!!

I think you’ll stand a better chance if you try it then come up with a reason why it’s bad fir you

ie icy roads, waking up husband returning in middle of the night and causing marital issues

Can you join a union? And ideally encourage your colleagues too so they can negotiate on behalf of all of you.

HR here. That justification won’t wash in a few months. ‘This is how we do things’ isn’t a valid business reason.

And actually; it’s not for you to give them reasons they should approve it. That requirement is gone. You don’t need to give strong reasons for why they should approve. You don’t need a reason. You can give one, but you don’t need one. They do however need to be able to give a strong business reason for turning you down, and the reasons they can give are rather limited.

Think your employer is in for a shock if they’ve not kept up with the changes in employment legislation. See the below link and look at the changes from April 2024 section. ‘We don’t do working from home contracts’ is going to be a thing of the past for people who aren’t customer facing.

https://workingfamilies.org.uk/articles/flexible-working-a-guide-for-employees/

Reading your OP it seems as if the company you work for is very clear and transparent regarding its hybrid working policy. While it is reasonable for you to apply and request to WFH 100% of the time as part of your flexible working request the business does not have to accept or approve the request to WFH 100% of the time. If I was given such a request I would decline it inline with policy. Your company has been supportive and more than reasonable by allowing three months of exclusive home working.

However you mention your team meetings run past your shift? How are you attending those if you’re currently WFH?

When you say you have to stare at a screen in silence, are you saying that you all sit in a room together but nobody is allowed to talk, no tea breaks, casual chats? Is someone watching you constantly and enforcing the no talking?

Don't understand why the team meeting has to be done at the end of the shift and why it over runs. Can't you just start it half an hour earlier? Where abouts in the shift do the day team have their meeting and cant the night shift do ithe same?

I run a small business that operates a lot like yours (online tech support) and all that team works from home. And not until that time either (fortunately).

We communicate via online messenger, and when we discuss things face to face (for the maximum of 4 hours that we’re in the office together) we still have to put it all on messenger anyway so there’s a record of what we’ve discussed. But even when we’re all in the office it’s mostly all done on messenger anyway.

The location is an industrial estate, some people live quite close to it but most of the people in my team are a good distance away. I think the nearest person is about a 15 minute drive.

Shifts of 5-6 hours get a 20 minute break, 8 hours you get half an hour.

However you mention your team meetings run past your shift? How are you attending those if you’re currently WFH?

Teams

No it’s not like that, but we have phone calls to answer so generally have to keep quiet, and we’re busy communicating with several customers at once so there isn’t really time for chit chat. We can request loo breaks etc outside of our actual break time, these requests also have to be done and approved on messenger so we can’t just get up and walk off. This also applies when we’re wfh.

This is really helpful, thank you.

I’ve also found some research into the detrimental effects of night shifts on health and family life, and car accidents- makes for very sobering reading.

Dear God, and it’s someone’s job to be available to approve requests from grown adults to go to the loo? How utterly dehumanising for you all. If I were a customer and I knew the staff were treated like this I’d stop using the retailer. I hope I am not using it.

We do have some security, but they're there to protect the warehouses full of merchandise, not the staff! It's not a long walk but it still feels utterly ridiculous scuttling across the car park with all our stuff like worker ants, particularly when it's pouring rain or snowing like it has been recently.

While it is reasonable for you to apply and request to WFH 100% of the time as part of your flexible working request the business does not have to accept or approve the request to WFH 100% of the time. If I was given such a request I would decline it inline with policy.

Why? Because computer says no?

You all have to seek permission to use the toilet outside of your break time? Jesus. "Janice, I need to change my mooncup fairly urgently, I'll be about 7 minutes, when can we schedule this in for please?" , "you're second in line to Sarah who needs to open her bowels, she'll be 5 minutes, so you can go at 23:55". Fuck that.

If you want to continue working for them, and they refuse the full-time WFH request, then I'd start requesting an evening rate of pay for your shift.

Agree re illegal about NMW.
I’m shocked you don’t receive a shift allowance.

Don’t put it in.

your not going to get it and gives you straight trouble maker status.

spend your time finding a new job.

It's not quite that absurd, it's more like "team leader, quick AWD (away from desk) please" and they thumbs up it, then you comment on the log in/log out channel when you go AWD and when you get back. it's more of an fyi than asking permission.

You understand this is how call centres work.

There is no major call centre where you don’t log out of phone to go to bathroom this is just a variety of asking for permission

Glad to hear it!

Standard for a call centre type work
You can't have everyone going to the toilet or making a brew at the same time

I don't ask permission but I can't go if someone else is, and I can't go say 30 mins into my shift or before the end unless there's an issue (and if there was I would message my boss saying something vague like "away from desk, personal issue, will be 5 mins"

Have you got a union ?

Not one that I'm aware of