Middle class but no money

[roopiea]

Does anyone else feel like this?

We would say we are middle class. Both university educated and privately schooled. In our 50s now. Parents had similar professions to us.

We work for the public sector, a teacher and management in local government. We live in a pretty reasonable part of the country. But we still feel we have no money for being in the middle class? We probably earn a combined 80k a year but live in a pretty bog standard 3 bed semi. Have holidays in places like Spain or Greece.

Whereas our neighbours are blue collar workers but seem to have so much more money than us. My best friend and her husband work similar jobs and they have a nicer house and better holidays than us.

We are regressing to the early 19th century. And the so-called difference between middle/working class blue vs white collar workers is a fiction designed to divide us.

Yep, imo as the middle classes have shrunk I think a lot have been fooled into thinking they are still superior than the working class family down the road because they say supper. “We are poorer but we are still better, we are middle class”. It’s a small comfort!

But why would a degree signify any of that after it became a stated aim that half of all young people
would go to university? I have several masters degrees but loads of people have similar so there is no particular shortage of people like me that would warrant an employer paying a premium. Whereas lots of building trades are shortage professions.

Well, all I can say is I don't think you'll find many people who agree with that definition. You appear to be trying to redraw the class parameters.

Maybe that’s why many on Mumsnet seem to be so fond of “old money”.

Class in UK is mix of background education and income - also social economic resources more complex and messy than in some other countries.

Education was suppose to give us access to the middle class jobs and income.

Inheritance means income is less needed for better lifestyle- if you inherited a house you are free of rent or mortgage payments - and generally - with many exceptions - higher social economic classes have more resources to pass on to next generation giving them a leg up.

I think a lot of the issues around class are posters working from different definitions and assumption - from income is class - very American view point - to others thinking you can't change class you were born to.

Many traditional middle class profession have had erosion of income last few decades along side house price rises and cost of living rises means less disposable income. Younger you are more you are hit by all this.

Maybe that’s why many on Mumsnet seem to be so fond of “old money”.

Yes, & the stupid notion that it’s somehow superior because one drives a battered Volvo vs a nouveau riche lout in a Range Rover. Of course this ignores the fact that plenty of old money drive RRs & plenty have nefarious history in their past re obtaining their wealth. Not sure how that makes them superior to someone self made just because he likes a bit of Gucci 🙄

Whilst I appreciate that the idea of getting a degree, followed by a well paid job is no longer true - can we keep in mind that the OP is in fact in a occupation that has seen massive shortages over the last fifteen years. Do she wasn't wrong to have picked this career from the point of view of there being a need. There is certainly a need and schools are crying out for more teachers. Sadly there is simply no desire to get any. That's not the case with the trades - there are also shortages but people pay a premium.

So let's not assume that picking a job with shortages guarantees a good income. As is clear in the case of the OP - it doesn't always work out that way.

Only because this group overwhelmingly come from inherited wealth.

Only because this group overwhelmingly come from inherited wealth.

A lot still do

I'm not American, as much as I loathe the description I'm British and MC. For my age group ie post boomer, MC is a mix of education and background. You could be as poor as a church mouse and it wouldn't change things.

Inheritance, money wise, is totally missing the point.

That’s why I do all my own cleaning 🤣.

Coming back to this idea. The Marxist definition of working class was everyone who worked for the bosses who owned the “means of production”.

As you say it isn’t the usual definition now, middle class professional jobs (usually requiring a degree) are not generally considered working class.

But amongst those middle class careers, the only people I know who haven’t suffered wage deflation DO own the means of production, eg, partners in law & accountancy firms who have shares in the business and get a profit share, at least in part generated from the labour of others.

Same for our builder who owns his business, he’s well off. I doubt the people who work for him are. Maybe Marx was on to something.

80k would put you in top 10% of household income. Plus you are old enough to have purchased a house at a better time. We are in the same age range as you, only DH was privately educated, I wasn’t and we worked in higher education. I retired at 55 and he has just retired at 56. We made it in to top 5% of earners for about a decade but were otherwise in top 10% like yourself, mainly as I chose to go PT for a few years.

We live in a better value part of the country but we took some risks investing in our twenties and thirties so are far better off than the life our salaries would ever have given us, hence the early retirement. We had zero help with childcare and so far zero inheritance though my Dad left DS a few thousand.

It would be interesting to know what financial decisions you made or you may just live in London.

Is the £80k before or after tax?

Sure, in my world it is, and I'm middle class. Ha!

Almost as if global banks and financial sectors don't want people with money to have any brains...

I am probably shouting into thin air at this point given that these threads are the fuel of Mumsnet but at the end of the day why does it matter what class someone is or how wealthy they are?

I certainly don't judge people as better or worse than me based on accent or wealth. After all wealth can be inherited/won/gained through criminal activity or exploitation

I value my friends and people around me based on what they bring to the world. Are they kind, interesting, funny, caring, wise, original...? Do they exploit or take advantage of others or do they help make the world a nicer place to live

I don't measure my life on how many "middle class" boxes I can tick but on whether I am fulfilled, whether I have the balance between family and work that works for me, whether I am nurturing relationships and pursuing passions and giving something back to society.

My neighbours I would say more WC in culture (big tvs, constant new cars,. lots of grey decor, astroturf). We are both similarly wealthy I would guess (based on hobbies,.choice of schools for kids etc). They run a decorating business, DH and I are professionals. We all worked together to help care for and support our elderly neighbours in our little close during the pandemic. In fact, if anything they did more, and they kick started the support. They were kind to me when I was locked out and couldn't get hold of DH. And I rescued their dog when he escaped onto the road. That's what I measure people by, not bank balance or who their parents were. That's all I want to be measured by too. My accent and tastes are just the lottery of birth.

My ex is vile and narcissistic but very MC/UMC and you could tell Cafcass thought the sun shone out of his rear end because his manners were impeccable and their report noted the piano in the hall like that was a marker of good character. Baffling. His professional background and veneer counted for more than the pile of police reports of his behaviour towards me.

My architect earns just over £42,000 PA and her cleaner whom charges £25 per hour and tops up her salary with a few ironing jobs a week earns a £1000 a week. Roughly £48,000 PA

You can't really compare different jobs though. To work 40 paid hours a week the cleaner would in reality have to spend many more unchargeable hours travelling between jobs whereas someone else earning a similar amount may work a few hours each day leaving lots of time free to focus on other income streams.

The disquiet in some circles when this was published puts a slightly different perspective on titled upper classes and some in the middle classes. Particularly those with older and university aged children…..

Indeed, the ‘class system’ in the U.K. might be celebrated on MN but certainly not everywhere…..and not by everyone. It makes me deeply uncomfortable, as it should with anyone that paused long enough to consider the historical significance and in some instances suffering.

Far more sensitivity needs to be applied to these ‘class’ discussions in my view.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/lbs/

Why does the opinion of an american university on our social values have any sway? Clearly an oxymoron

We have five degrees between us and my lovely hairdresser and builder hubby earn a small fortune in comparison. You can earn a great income in blue collar trades. Even if I was working full time our joint income would probably lag behind theirs by some margin!

Do you understand how this can be used? And why being listed might create a few issues for the families involved? Do you seriously not understand the implications?

My point is that people/media etc conflate the 'employer contribution' with Defined Contribution schemes and think that 28% goes to a pot you can turn into cash.

I would say we are working class with the jobs we do. Joint income last year was £120k up north but a lot of extra shifts not just standard wage rate

Well either these people with more money earn more than you or have less outgoings than you.

It's as simple as that, you're not in a particularly well paid areas. You're not wealthy and you sound like you are loving an average mid income life style. Education only goes so far. Most people where I work have a masters and a phd but I work in a very low paid industry. We often joke you'd need a trust fund to work here but we don't actually have trust funds! So we also all live very mid income lifestyles.