I am hugely struggling with this stage

[imalonewiththis2]

I don’t know what to get out of this but have would love at least some reassurance it might get better or hear from other parents of similar aged kids . I’ve 3 dcs , three sons. It was obviously hard work when they were small and for two of them in particular as they never,ever slept so I had years of chronic sleep deprivation.
It got a little easier when youngest turned 3 but then Covid hit and I lost my job and there was a lot of other stress. However I still really enjoyed the time when they were small and we did our best during Covid and they were good ages to keep everything simple.
We’ve never had any family help whatsoever, they don’t live far away , they are all just completely hands-off and don’t do any babysitting/practical whatsoever, it’s been like this our entire parenting lives, we even had to get paid help when I went into labour.
I thought it would just get easier by now- our kids are 8, 11 and 13 and I’m finding it so, so hard. I really enjoyed the routine and activities when they were younger (I know not everyone does ) like the playground, softplays , farms etc. I think I’ve found the transition much harder than I expected. Their behaviour is so bad at the moment and we are firm , fair , always carry out consequences/it actually doesn’t seem to work that well. They argue constantly with us and with each other about everything.
I can’t actually think of this getting worse tbh. Maybe it’s just hugely magnified at the moment as they are off and the weather where we are is awful, they are extremely physically, they have always had way, way more energy than average kids so thankfully they all love sports but over the holidays obviously there is a lot less on.
My eldest does have lots of friends and he meets them and we often have kids over for of them which is great but also lots of boys can be tiring also.
Everything.is.a.battle , everything… I do ask them what they’d like to do and I absolutely understand that they are older and won’t want to be dragged to stuff but equally I can’t have them on screens all day - this makes their behaviour awful and the youngest then just wants to watch and he’s too young to be in front of video games all day. I make deals etc and give them times . It’s all still endless arguments and is so so embarrassing tbh, we were away a few months ago and tried playing some cards on the train and they just ended up screaming and fighting.
Of course we separate them and do things alone, actually relatively frequently as we know how important this is . My dh is very hands-on and we do try and swap over but I’m a teacher (ironically secondary!!!) and all my time off is spent with them , my dh has to work but he takes them off camping etc and doing lots but it’s still constant bickering…. The main this is the constant objection to anything we want to do, it’s absolutely constant. I just don’t hear my other friends talk about it , they talk about holidays being relaxing .
I don’t leave my 11 and 13 years old alone (maybe max an hour ) at home as I’d worry about fighting (which we are completely strict on and immediate consequences-they still fckn do it 🤷‍♀️) and the 11 year old has really bad impulse control and I’d worry re fire etc.
It’s absolutely exhausting and I actually worry we might get sick, we both look exhausted. Both of our jobs are very full-on too. We’ve tried to find babysitters to get a break (we aren’t in a country that has websites for babysitting services) but honestly it’s very hard to find anyone anymore. We can never go to events together and I guess we are just totally burnt out . There isn’t an easy solution. I’m a teacher and I’m good with behaviour, I’m consistent but it just doesn’t seem to work for them 🤷‍♀️ Please tell me this will get easier!!!

It sounds like your making life harder for yourself by refusing/limiting screen time?

The 11 and 13 year old, its very normal for kids that age to engage with friends online with games etc.

My 12 year old DD is in her room most of the day, I do sometimes make her come out with us but shes at a age where she doesn’t want to engage with family day outs which do not interest her. Its strange you cannot leave your two older boys alone and is not normal.

@safetyfreak thanks , your response make someone who is actually pretty low feel like absolute crap.
I do leave them alone but they can actually physically fight each other which could be dangerous at times. We are really good parents actually but just struggling at the moment. I don’t think kids being on screens all day is healthy at all and that’s what they’d do all day given a choice . Im fine about it the odd day but one of my dcs becomes agitated if in front of screens all day. What about your other kids ?

Two boys here. Mine both went through a fighting stage when the eldest hit puberty. He didn't want to play with his brother anymore and used to come home full of bravado, tease his db something rotten and the youngest didn't have the maturity to cope with it. At 18 and 14 they love each other now! I just had to grit teeth and get through it somehow.

I think you have done amazingly to have been so strict with screens. I would honestly say to use them if you need during the holidays, and not worry too much as you have laid good foundations. My eldest didn't have access til way beyond his peers, whereas the youngest had it much earlier. Eldest is much better at self regulating. Maybe give your eldest a bit more time and use it as leverage?

Oh and divide and conquer! What's their dad up to? Can you work out 1 on 1 time between you for the eldest perhaps?

Also a teacher <waves> everyone says to us how wonderful it is to have the holidays but in fact they don’t realise we don’t get a break especially when your partner isn’t a teacher.

It is totally normal re the fighting, I’ve always remembered my friend saying this - she was actually talking about William and harry and said resignedly that boys of a certain age will fight - like you she was on it but it still happened.

Do they enjoy anything like skiing (dry slope) or rugby, even fishing or something?

I think in a lot of ways that's the worst range of ages.

The youngest is too young to leave alone; the oldest can be left, but may well not want to.
And then you have the youngest saying "but it's not fair... why can he,,,?"

So you end up dragging them to shopping etc which they hate.

They're also really getting a bit big for a lot of soft play things (and the 13yo may well not be allowed on) but not really ready for more adult stuff.

And there's quite a difference between what an 8yo wants to do and 13yo can enjoy too.

A couple of years and you can leave the 10yo behind and take the now 15yo to drop off with friends. And the 15yo may have matured enough to be able to (rather paternally) do something a 10yo wants to do in a nostalgic kind of way.

My advice would be:
If you are tired and need a break, let them on their screens. Or take the 8yo out to something and let the other two on screens if it effects him more.
Encourage the 13yo out with friends; they need friends at this age.
Try and have some 1-2-1 time with each. McDs drivethru' with one on the way back from shopping can give them time to chat and feel a bit special.
Get them doing sport of some sort - or even the gym for the 13yo if you have one in your area for that age.

If they do fight be consistent. Don't always blame the oldest because he should have more control - because an 8yo is more than capable of making use of that.

And give them a couple of age appropriate chores. Unload the dishwasher might be a daily one, but maybe the 13yo could clean the car once a month (my ds used to love that. Unfortunately he has gone off it!) and things like that.

And say to yourself "this will too pass..."

Honestly I really am not that strict on screens , I mean they have hours on them a day but then my 8 year old then only wants to look at them too. My eldest is my easiest tbh , he does do a far bit of winding up but other son is very volatile and can be tricky to manage. My dh and I do organise a lot of swapping over together and have one to one time with the kids as of course although they love each other, they can get sick of each other .
My dh is brilliant , he’s always doing things like fishing , surfing etc with them as they love all that stuff. He takes them out and is totally hands on but the fact is he also has to work in the holidays.
I mean I honestly thought it wasn’t great to have kids on screens all day long , at our school we had two really sobering training type events on this . Like all day ? I have done this when I’ve been sick before but it can make one of mine really agitated. I think it might be just this time of year , a lot of the sports they do aren’t on at the moment.
I’ve definitely struggled with that change from young kids enthusiasm about walks in the woods /beach to this , they don’t want to go and fair enough but I still have an 8 year old . Maybe I’ll just let them at the screens and have less limits. We really aren’t super strict but it’s a tricky stage for sure. We live in a country that get lovely , hot summers so we are lucky in that respect as so much easier as they are naturally outdoorsy and seem to thrive more in sun. I think I really need to adjust my expectations and @brightlyshone and @Seaworthy your posts have massively helped. Thank you so much.

@MargaretThursday -your post is very helpful and that’s exactly how I feel. I would not leave the older two to look after the 8 year old as they are too young to. My 13 is actually the easiest to manage and has tons of friends , how social life is actually very busy 😂 I think in need to reframe my thinking and expectations, I do think these are tricky ages .

This too shall pass OP! Just keep doing what you're doing, giving consequences for the fighting. It is bloody hard work but the pennies will drop eventually.

Ooh and middle child syndrome! Perhaps it's the middle one that needs some focussed 1 on 1 time?

@Seaworthy absolutely. This post has really helped me , I feel that I need to change my perspective completely now. I’ve been the one who just thinks we can do family days out like before and honestly they have become really challenging. I actually feel that this was the objective advice I needed , really helpful.

I disagree with the first poster op and think you should limit screen time!! No way in hell would I be ok to let my kid spend all day in their room. Any holiday camps possible?? If you told them how much strain their behaviour was causing would they try and change? What about pocket money and chores.. rewards for good proper behaviour.. at this age your oldest two could benefit from learning self discipline a bit and being responsible!! I’d maybe try say each getting £10 a week (or less - I don’t know what’s reasonable now!!) and any poor behaviour they get deductions over the week and the remaining amount paid at end of week for example. Money can be added for good behaviour or completing chores set by you. Could include basic things like laundry also a group activity eg them making dinner together for example. Lots of luck to you @imalonewiththis2 x

Safetyfreak you leave your 12 year old in her room most of the day ??

Are you serious ? That's shocking .

OP you sound great . Your kids' ages are a challenge but you sound like great parents .

I have 5 kids , 4 boys . Close in age . It will pass !!

I'm with you OP. DCs are 11 and 13. We have similar rules around limited screen time. I really miss the early years stage, the baby and toddler groups, the trips to the park and being able to make everything better with a cuddle. Now it's battle after battle, bickering, boundary pushing, which I know is normal, but my word it's hard work!

There's really only so much intervention you can do - like if someone's going to get hurt! Separating them and getting them to take time out til they've calmed down seemed like a monumental mountain to climb, but we got there eventually. Ultimately they've got to figure it out themselves. DS1 still has a pop and a wind up of DS2, but DS2 now fully comes back with one liners that diffuse the situation, instead of getting mad. It's now become more of an in-joke between them and they choose to hang out, which is lovely. DS1 likes to think he's helped him learn the skills needed in the battle play ground! I was horrified at the time but they've both turned out very thoughtful and caring.

OP completely ignore that ignorant first reply.
i have two 12 year old boys (and an older one). Never found it so difficult as now. Could have said almost every word you have written.
They have always been very energetic and fight etc but now it’s a new level. Rudeness, and battles literally 100 times a day.
Of course you can’t leave them on screens all day- kids need to be out in the fresh air every day at least for a bit and using up energy.
The previous poster who leaves their 12 year old in their room all day and thinks it’s normal is neglectful in my eyes.
I can’t leave my two for even 10 mins alone in the house. Not safe, they would be in a fight and do something stupid.
i am taking a harder line with the rudeness going forward into 2025 as I’ve told them something has to change. Can’t be spoken to like they currently are. Harsher instant consequences which I need to really resolve to stick to for longer.
OP just take each day as it comes. Lots of positive rewards, consequences and also pick battles.
It will pass but in with you- it’s so hard. A really awkward age as too old for play areas and too young to be independent outside the home further afield.

I would add that you should try to manage the fighting - in my brothers' case it turned into bullying, there were only 2 years between my two brothers, younger has no relationship with his brother, as he was bullied by his big brother, my parents put it down to boys being boys. My brothers weren't allowed to hit me, because I was a girl, but my older brother was still nasty to me, and I don't like him.

I only have one DS, so I haven't had to deal with sibling bullying, but I think it can be swept under the carpet, but do so much damage.

@Baileysfeverdream “ you should try and manage the fighting “ , did you read my posts? That’s literally exactly what we do. Honestly this post was more directed at advice from parents of multiples as it’s hard to relate if you have one child.
They are actually very close and when separated constantly ask to have the others around 😂 but of course we have to deal with conflict and we do our absolute best. We are very hot on consequences for fighting and bad behaviour, they still do it 🤷‍♀️ I’m a secondary school teacher so have to manage behaviour a lot , I’m good at it but it doesn’t always work and with our own kids can be more difficult. I’m genuinely finding this stage very challenging hence my post.

@WhiteLily1 your post is literally exactly how I feel and my life at the moment . Thank you so much , I think it’s just assumed everything gets easier and easier and I keep thinking we are total failures for finding this so hard. Also I remember whenever I was out and about with 3 small children and generally people praise as they see babies and toddlers and give so much leeway. Now when I’m out and about people find us annoying 😂 and no leeway is given obviously and it’s far more awkward at times ! It isn’t rose-tinted as my 8 year old only turned 8, I remember the younger really well. @WhiteLily1 your post just sums up exactly how I feel , it’s so simplistic for others to say “ that’s not normal , I wouldn’t tolerate that “ if they aren’t dealing with specific age dynamics or multiple kids. Definitely the most wearing stage so far but just hoping it’ll get easier in the next few years and I’ve to really adjust expectations.

Your poor daughter, I would never allow this OP so please take no notice

You're totally right.

Kids zombified on screens may be less annoying in the moment but it's not the answer

Unfortunately though at those ages you're at the sharp end. So many hormones flying about

I popped in the shop the other day and a car was parked outside and the dad got out, opened all the doors saying "right, everyone out!!" 3 x teenage sulking boys got out and had a right dressing down in public by their dad on the pavement about what luxuries and lovely times they'd been having and how their behaviour was way out of line! My heart went out to him!! They all looked suitably sheepish as I squeezed past lol. I do think it's very normal, but absolutely, as @Baileysfeverdream points out, if the behaviour is not called out, or is dismissed, laughed off or ignored, and crosses over into bullying, it can have a lasting impact as you're well aware. It's a difficult balance, just keep consistent with the messages and consequences. Get them out with their friends/hobbies as much as poss but don't beat yourself up if it's mixed with a few days on screens. Picking battles and whatever works is fine, as long as in balance! You'll end up one of those awesomely understanding secondary teachers who understand exactly the challenges the kids' parents are going through!

Whether fighting is normal or not, op still needs to find ways to deal with it because it's not acceptable.
Can you engage with the fight?
Instead of making them stop, teach them how to resolve the conflict.
Be a referee and never take sides.
Get each of them to explain what's going on without interruption from the other.
Validate their feelings and try not blame one child over the other.
Get them to emphasise with the other child by asking how would they feel if that had happened to them
Help them to work out a solution. What can they do if this happens again?
Help them to find ways to get space and calm down when they get angry.

You're absolutely correct in limiting their screen time. Even though it's harder, it's going to be so much better for them in the long run.
Could you give them a list of things to do before screen time? One thing on the list should involve exercise and fresh air if, the weather permits, some chores and some reading possibly?
Have a timetable and an events calendar that you all discuss beforehand so they know what to expect.
I found my kids responded better and were calmer when they knew what to expect.

Yes totally. And I don’t have anyone to speak to in real life who can relate. I know loads of mums but any with kids similar ages are now moving on to the next stage - leaving kids at home to go out for a meal, taking kids to nice restaurants, or their kids are two girls who don’t fight.
I honestly thought having 3 kids under 3 was the hardest phase but except for new born twins and toddler (very hard) this comes a close second. Even as babies though, people offer support and give leaway as they appreciate it’s hard. Now I feel alone. I cry most days. Husband feels the same and we are both at wits end some days with how to handle them. Lots of days I’m almkst anxious about them coming back from school which is an awful thing to say but I know within 5 mins (earlier sometimes as the fight begins on the door step or walk back home) they are in full shouting / fighting/ squabbling / rudeness to me mode.
Despite trying to give them a nice Christmas and new year I’ve been told by two of them this morning that this is going to be the worst day ever, tomorrow will be rubbish and the day after and then it’s back to school. All because it’s windy outside and they can use the toys they wanted to. And breathe.

OP, this will pass. But it's hard when you are in the middle of it. I have three, and the pre-teen/early teens were the worst age for fighting - it was constant. It's way, way worse than two kids, because now you have three relationships to manage, not just one.

But it will pass - as your kids mature, they will hopefully learn to resolve their differences (you can help with this on some occassions). Mine are all young adults now, and I can't remember the last time they had an argument. For now, just keep doing what you are doing - limiting screen time, offering activities, getting them out of the house as much as you can, giving them a list of chores to do, offering some money for larger chores such as car washing. If they argue with each other, try to help them to sit down to resolve this without fighting, if they argue with you (and it's unreasonable) cut privileges.

It's hard, but you will get there. Just hang on the to moments when it's peaceful, and they are being good! It's strange how you will look back on this all with rose-tinted glasses. I know my kids argued and fought a lot, but mostly I just remember the good bits.