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Being taken to court for child access by FIL

84 replies

LivelyFish · 18/12/2024 00:50

Hiya, I’m looking for some guidance from anyone who has knowledge or experience in going to court, even better if it’s by a grandparent’.

my father in law is taking myself and my partner to court for access to our children, the first court case date is 03/01/25 and it’s a joint permissions/directions case. I have no idea if that’s normal to have the two joint or not, but what can we expect from the first hearing? The oldest child is mine from a previous relationship and the youngest is related to him. The oldest child’s biological dad has been left off the application despite him being an active parent, I presume that this is something we can get fixed at the first hearing if it goes ahead?

my partner cut his dad off end of last year as he had spent his entire life being abused by that man and when his dad was incredibly rude and disrespectful toward me for the millionth time he lost his composure and told him he was cutting contact, and that seeing the kids would be done by me, in public but that if he did it again he’d be losing the kids too. I put up with him until the beginning of this year and then had enough and stopped contact too. We have spent this entire year working on our relationship because his dad caused us a lot of problems and we are finally in a good place.

the last time the kids saw him they were 2 and 4, by the time we have our first hearing it’ll be a month short of an entire year since we had seen him. He spent the previous year studying abroad and we didn’t have a close relationship with him because my partner didn’t like being around him and he was very toxic toward us, so the kids never had a good relationship with him.

he ignored many boundaries put in place, he put the kids health at risk, he emotionally manipulated my kids with the whole ‘oh if you don’t give me attention I’ll be sad’, would invade their personal space, was very emotionally abusive towards myself and my partner, he’s done some very questionable things (following into a private room to watch the baby get their nappy changed, we’ve found pictures of my partner at a similar age to the oldest completely naked and forward facing in the shower etc), he was emotionally incestious toward my partner and his brother growing up (my partner worse than his brother), has tried to put wedges in my relationship with my partner, threatened my partner by saying if he didn’t reply by X date then he’d turn up at my home and then on X date my car had its mirror kicked in and smashed (no proof it was him because my SD card was in the home overnight but very coincidental) just to name a few things.

the man is also applying for a name change and I presume it’s only for the youngest, he tried to convince my partner after birth to register them behind my back so the child had his surname, despite us already agreeing the child would take mine. He wants the child’s birth certificate, he wants the child to be taken to be registered under his nationalities and even tried to suggest getting the oldest registered under one of them through my relationship with my partner (not married). He’s completely delusional obviously but it’s still really worrying me that the court will give him access despite him being very obviously unstable just because he’s a grandparent.

we are hoping that with all of our reasons, the magistrates will tell him to walk back out the door, but we are concerned we’re opening a door for cafcass and social services and months/years of draining court visits. Our concerns can be seen as alarming and he’s also claimed abuse to him by cutting him off and arguing with him and potentially to the girls because we have mental health history (my partners mental health only suffers when his dad is degrading him daily, which hasn’t happened for well over a year, and mine was in my teenage years but I’m absolutely fine now).

his dad has used his application as a smear campaign against me, praying for our relationship to end so his son comes back to him, etc etc. we also have messages he sent to my partners mum saying that he will cancel the case if my partner gives him a real reason as to why contact stopped (despite being given loads by both of us), and then said ‘but he won’t because there is no reason except for the fact that OP doesn’t want him talking to me’ so he is in his own world about all of this. He also is under the impression that 1- my partner isn’t on the youngest child’s birth certificate and 2- that he will be seeing my child’s birth certificate during the case.

we don’t know what to expect, but he’s definitely got some issues that need addressing. So if anyone could help me make sense of this, give me some advice or pointers, lay out the process etc I’d be very grateful! And sorry if this makes absolutely no sense, I tried to fit in as many points as possible without actually giving away my identity incase this ever gets back to him!

thank you in advance x

OP posts:
Wallywobbles · 18/12/2024 12:47

Can I recommend you do a timeline that's very easy to follow for everyone. Add the documents to your timeline but beware of over complicating it. So could have list of dates and doc 1, doc 2 etc and then number the docs to correspond.

Wallywobbles · 18/12/2024 12:48

Add highlight the key parts of the docs. But again not excessively. You want to make the story easy to understand and follow

MerryMaker · 18/12/2024 12:52

I would not use the term emotional incest. This is too open to interpretation. Just say his father was difficult and your partner said to you many times that his father bullied him and tried to control him.
In general explain exactly what you mean, rather than using umbrella terms like this.
When he was abroad did he make any attempt at contact with the children? Any phone calls, video calls, birthday cards and presents sent? If he did not, say that. And you can add that you do not think it is fair on the children to have some sporadic contact and then no contact at all for a year. That would make him look even more unreasonable.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

Snorlaxo · 18/12/2024 12:54

I’m sorry that you’re being put through this.

Grandparents in the UK only get contact rights in very limited circumstances eg if he looked after the kids while you and your partner were in jail for a few years

Your partner couldn’t register your child together behind your back because you were unmarried. Stay strong and good luck

LivelyFish · 18/12/2024 16:31

HPandthelastwish · 18/12/2024 11:01

This is quite possibly the craziest thing I've heard. I very much expect the magistrates to (politely) laugh him out of court and to give him a telling off.

I'm glad some grandparents get contact, my parents have seen DD everyday and did all school runs etc so I would have been most hopeful that if anything happened to me when she was small my parents could have applied for contact. But your FiL is entirely delusional. What you could do is move further away putting physical distance between you all that might help ease all of your MH anyway.

I sure hope they do!

yeah I agree, my kids are so close with my nan and sister so I’d like to think if (touch wood) anything happened to their parents that my family could step in and take them on, but my FIL is definitely pulling at strings!

we plan to move in a couple of years, so the distance would definitely help along with him not knowing the address!

OP posts:
LivelyFish · 18/12/2024 16:40

HPandthelastwish · 18/12/2024 11:05

@LivelyFish Do inform school, it's normal for them to have a list of people who can't pick children up and he shouldn't be able to anyway if you haven't given him permission first anyway. It's always worth giving school an overview of any major family stressors so that they can keep a eye on DC and give more TLC

Well luckily he’s never been on the list of approved adults, but in that case I’ll make a point of mentioning it to the school just so know they know I don’t want the kids going with him at any point! Thank you

OP posts:
LivelyFish · 18/12/2024 16:41

Isatis · 18/12/2024 11:22

Perhaps your partner could talk to his phone provider about whether it is possible to recover deleted messages?

We did think about this, but as it was all on WhatsApp and on his old number we’re not sure we will be able to get it back

OP posts:
HPandthelastwish · 18/12/2024 16:45

If you don't already have a Will detailing guardianship should the worst happen to yourself and your partner now would be an excellent time to get that in place.

LivelyFish · 18/12/2024 16:49

Soggydog · 18/12/2024 12:03

The name change application could be a blessing in disguise due to how inappropriate it is and the level of control it shows as is him leaving your husband off. I don't think from what you say you have any concerns.

I definitely hope so, honestly myself and my other half know full well what this man is like, it’s just about hoping the magistrates see through him too!

OP posts:
LivelyFish · 18/12/2024 16:57

MerryMaker · 18/12/2024 12:11

The court will not say he can pick up. I would tell the school and any clubs explicitly that their grandfather is not allowed to pick him up. You could even vaguely hint at court proceedings you are not allowed to talk about, so they know how serious this is.

I hope not as he’s suggested pick ups/drop offs in his application! Thank you, I’ll be sure to add a note in their files before they break up and ready for the new year.

OP posts:
LivelyFish · 18/12/2024 16:59

MerryMaker · 18/12/2024 12:42

I would scrap the car thing personally. But the organisations mentioned by other posters can also advise. I think he has a very weak case, so simply saying he made these threats and you have been uneasy about whether he would follow through is I think fine. In the meantime get a Ring doorbell or similar so if he does commit any vandalism, you have a recording of it.

I think following you when you are changing the babies nappy is a fact, but whether it matters is interpretation only. You don't want to come over as being hysterical. I do not think you are, but I personally would leave that out. The photo of your DH naked when a child I would also leave out. TBH photos like this were common in the past and just seen as cute. It might mean more in your FILs case, but it could easily be seen as you being a bit hysterical.

Just focus on the fact he does not really have a relationship with the children. Not seen them when he was abroad for a year, never been alone with them or taken them out alone for the day, and only seen them sporadically. It might be good to list how many times he saw them in a year if it is fairly low. It does not matter that one of them is not his biological grandchild, the legislation about a child's right to continue seeing an adult that has had an important relationship with them and can apply to non biologically related adults.

And then talk about why you broke contact i.e. he he was rude to you in front of the children and upset them, by forcing his affections if you mean he tried to cuddle them when they did not want to be cuddled for example, then say that explicitly. Also say that your DH stopped seeing his father a while ago because he was so upset at how his father treated him. But you carried on seeing him to facilitate a relationship between him and his GC, but had to stop contact because of the negative impact on the children - even though the contact was sporadic. Emphasise that he behaved poorly towards you and their father, and that his attempt to change their names against both his parents wishes is a continuation of how his behaviour was never reasonable or nice towards you and their father.

Maybe say that you are happy for him to send cards and letters so they know who granddad is. And when they get old enough to talk on the phone to him, but only if they want to. But you do not think that upsetting the children by his behaviour towards you and them, is at all beneficial towards the children, given the relationship was so sporadic.

I do not think he has any chance of being granted contact.

Thank you for the feedback, I’ll take it on board for sure. You’ve been very helpful!

OP posts:
LivelyFish · 18/12/2024 17:07

Wallywobbles · 18/12/2024 12:48

Add highlight the key parts of the docs. But again not excessively. You want to make the story easy to understand and follow

Thank you. I do have a problem with talking more than I should so I’ll try to make sure I rein it in slightly!

OP posts:
HPandthelastwish · 18/12/2024 17:09

Chat gpt or goblin tools is good for summarising and bullet pointing information you give it. Just don't put anything too identifying init as once it's put in they own the information.

LivelyFish · 18/12/2024 17:14

MerryMaker · 18/12/2024 12:52

I would not use the term emotional incest. This is too open to interpretation. Just say his father was difficult and your partner said to you many times that his father bullied him and tried to control him.
In general explain exactly what you mean, rather than using umbrella terms like this.
When he was abroad did he make any attempt at contact with the children? Any phone calls, video calls, birthday cards and presents sent? If he did not, say that. And you can add that you do not think it is fair on the children to have some sporadic contact and then no contact at all for a year. That would make him look even more unreasonable.

Edited

Yeah so obviously I wouldn’t be mentioning any type of abuse he put my partner through (except for the verbal abuse he did whilst I’ve been with my partner and the degrading DH to me) so that’ll be up to my partner to bring up, obviously the term emotional incest is an umbrella term and I used it here just to quickly highlight his behaviours but it can be taken in other ways.

when he went abroad he came back every month or so, but we only saw him three times, we either had plans or the kids were ill (and he threw his toys out the pram if we had to cancel or say no). Otherwise he sent nothing for the kids. Even since contact stopped they’ve had no cards, letters, gifts or anything like that.

OP posts:
LivelyFish · 18/12/2024 17:15

Snorlaxo · 18/12/2024 12:54

I’m sorry that you’re being put through this.

Grandparents in the UK only get contact rights in very limited circumstances eg if he looked after the kids while you and your partner were in jail for a few years

Your partner couldn’t register your child together behind your back because you were unmarried. Stay strong and good luck

Well luckily we’ve never been in prison, hospital or anything else!

yes my partner and I knew he couldn’t go behind my back, but unfortunately it didn’t stop FIL for pushing for it!

thank you!

OP posts:
LivelyFish · 18/12/2024 17:17

HPandthelastwish · 18/12/2024 16:45

If you don't already have a Will detailing guardianship should the worst happen to yourself and your partner now would be an excellent time to get that in place.

I don’t have an official will (anything signed or witnessed by solicitors) but I do have a written will saying where I’d like my kids to go in the event of something happening to me. Thank you

OP posts:
mmmarmalade · 18/12/2024 17:27

I friend of mine (actually of my parents - a family friend for 50 years) worked for Citizens Advice for 30 years, was a financial advisor, has done charity work for year, etc - he's been on a solo journey giving free help to people for years. A few years ago he represented a mother with a young daughter in exactly this situation - the grandparents of the ex-husband wanted access to the granddaughter. Exactly s he expected - it was thrown out very quickly. I hope that that's the case for you.

Interestingly - the GP's had bought the GD a mobile phone. My friend discovered that it had mobile tracking turned on for an email account that they set up for the GD - he believed that they were tracking the location of the GD for whatever reason.

That's all I know. HTH

Einaldilastcup · 18/12/2024 17:42

He may well get visitation for his bio grandchild. I watched this play out last year. Access was given to the grandmother despite the kids not seeing her for about 2 years because she assaulted their mother

turkeymuffin · 18/12/2024 18:20

YIP · 18/12/2024 01:06

OP I’m pretty sure that won’t happen! No court in the land can enforce grandparents rights - it doesn’t exist. Don’t worry!

Edited

Although this is true, I have a friend who was dragged through a long court case before a judge finally kicked the grandparent out of court.

They didn't take it particularly seriously to begin with (self represented) and it backfired as the first judge allowed it to proceed.

So my advice would be to lawyer up from the beginning and ensure nothing FIL says goes unchallenged through naivety. Also if there are cultural issues at play that's even more important.

Miepmiep · 18/12/2024 18:20

If he has made allegations of abuse, there should have been a form for you to respond to the allegations. I am surprised CAFCAS haven’t already contacted you if he has made allegations. Have you been asked to give a position statement for the hearing?

My advice would be to get proper legal advice.

I think what you need to do (based on having done this, I’m not a lawyer) is:

Fill in the form to have your eldest’s father added to proceedings as everyone with PR has to be included.

Look up the grounds that grandparents can apply to the court for a CAO and see if any apply to him (I’m pretty sure they don’t) If not, ask the court not to grant permission to apply for a CAO as he does not have any grounds. No idea how you do that but our solicitor did that before the hearing. As a PP said, usually permission is granted regardless as DC have a right to a relationship with their GPs so the court will allow the case to be heard to make sure a decision is made in the DC’s best interest.

As he has been abusive, there is a form to fill in to document the abuse against you and your family.

If you have to give a position statement, make sure to include the effect of having contact with your FIL has on your DH’s mental health and your relationship and how that will effect your DC.

It is good to offer letterbox contact to show that you are reasonable. We were advised to offer contact at a contact centre a few times a year at their cost, as that is likely the most the court would order (in our case) if the case went ahead because the court won’t hear the case if they decline what they would be offered if a CAO were granted IYSWIM?

Miepmiep · 18/12/2024 18:27

For everyone saying that grandparents don’t have any rights in the UK (except in a few circumstances), they don’t, but DC do have rights to a relationship with their grandparents. Don’t assume the court won’t grant permission for him to apply for a CAO.

SnappyReader · 14/03/2025 14:31

Hi @LivelyFish - I have PM’d you but did this go any further? We have received a mediation letter on Monday from FIL and have spent the week worrying like mad! LB is 2 and hasn’t seen FIL for over a year and it was only supervised visits for a hour or so maybe every 4/5 weeks before then. We heard nothing for a year and now this, he was threatening legal action when LB was 3 months old because he wasn’t getting as much access as he wanted then (it was excessive). Any advice would be really appreciated - thank you x

Miepmiep · 14/03/2025 15:36

@SnappyReader It would probably be more helpful if you started your own thread in legal. The details are really important, you can’t extrapolate how things will go from a different case eg did you stop contact a year ago because of your FIL’s behaviour or did he stop contact because you wouldn’t let him have as much contact as he wanted? Why don’t you want your FIL to have any contact?

Mediation is voluntary. You are exempt from mediation if you have proof your FIL has been abusive. You can also just refuse for any reason you want but the court may not look favourably on you if you refuse without any of the grounds for exemption.

SnappyReader · 14/03/2025 17:53

Miepmiep · 14/03/2025 15:36

@SnappyReader It would probably be more helpful if you started your own thread in legal. The details are really important, you can’t extrapolate how things will go from a different case eg did you stop contact a year ago because of your FIL’s behaviour or did he stop contact because you wouldn’t let him have as much contact as he wanted? Why don’t you want your FIL to have any contact?

Mediation is voluntary. You are exempt from mediation if you have proof your FIL has been abusive. You can also just refuse for any reason you want but the court may not look favourably on you if you refuse without any of the grounds for exemption.

Thank you - i'm so nervous that FIL will be checking forums like this and it will cause more issues though :( if you have any history of this issue or know anything about it could I message you privately for some help? No worries if not xx

Miepmiep · 14/03/2025 18:02

Feel free to PM me, @SnappyReader.

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