Being taken to court for child access by FIL

[LivelyFish]

Hiya, I’m looking for some guidance from anyone who has knowledge or experience in going to court, even better if it’s by a grandparent’.

my father in law is taking myself and my partner to court for access to our children, the first court case date is 03/01/25 and it’s a joint permissions/directions case. I have no idea if that’s normal to have the two joint or not, but what can we expect from the first hearing? The oldest child is mine from a previous relationship and the youngest is related to him. The oldest child’s biological dad has been left off the application despite him being an active parent, I presume that this is something we can get fixed at the first hearing if it goes ahead?

my partner cut his dad off end of last year as he had spent his entire life being abused by that man and when his dad was incredibly rude and disrespectful toward me for the millionth time he lost his composure and told him he was cutting contact, and that seeing the kids would be done by me, in public but that if he did it again he’d be losing the kids too. I put up with him until the beginning of this year and then had enough and stopped contact too. We have spent this entire year working on our relationship because his dad caused us a lot of problems and we are finally in a good place.

the last time the kids saw him they were 2 and 4, by the time we have our first hearing it’ll be a month short of an entire year since we had seen him. He spent the previous year studying abroad and we didn’t have a close relationship with him because my partner didn’t like being around him and he was very toxic toward us, so the kids never had a good relationship with him.

he ignored many boundaries put in place, he put the kids health at risk, he emotionally manipulated my kids with the whole ‘oh if you don’t give me attention I’ll be sad’, would invade their personal space, was very emotionally abusive towards myself and my partner, he’s done some very questionable things (following into a private room to watch the baby get their nappy changed, we’ve found pictures of my partner at a similar age to the oldest completely naked and forward facing in the shower etc), he was emotionally incestious toward my partner and his brother growing up (my partner worse than his brother), has tried to put wedges in my relationship with my partner, threatened my partner by saying if he didn’t reply by X date then he’d turn up at my home and then on X date my car had its mirror kicked in and smashed (no proof it was him because my SD card was in the home overnight but very coincidental) just to name a few things.

the man is also applying for a name change and I presume it’s only for the youngest, he tried to convince my partner after birth to register them behind my back so the child had his surname, despite us already agreeing the child would take mine. He wants the child’s birth certificate, he wants the child to be taken to be registered under his nationalities and even tried to suggest getting the oldest registered under one of them through my relationship with my partner (not married). He’s completely delusional obviously but it’s still really worrying me that the court will give him access despite him being very obviously unstable just because he’s a grandparent.

we are hoping that with all of our reasons, the magistrates will tell him to walk back out the door, but we are concerned we’re opening a door for cafcass and social services and months/years of draining court visits. Our concerns can be seen as alarming and he’s also claimed abuse to him by cutting him off and arguing with him and potentially to the girls because we have mental health history (my partners mental health only suffers when his dad is degrading him daily, which hasn’t happened for well over a year, and mine was in my teenage years but I’m absolutely fine now).

his dad has used his application as a smear campaign against me, praying for our relationship to end so his son comes back to him, etc etc. we also have messages he sent to my partners mum saying that he will cancel the case if my partner gives him a real reason as to why contact stopped (despite being given loads by both of us), and then said ‘but he won’t because there is no reason except for the fact that OP doesn’t want him talking to me’ so he is in his own world about all of this. He also is under the impression that 1- my partner isn’t on the youngest child’s birth certificate and 2- that he will be seeing my child’s birth certificate during the case.

we don’t know what to expect, but he’s definitely got some issues that need addressing. So if anyone could help me make sense of this, give me some advice or pointers, lay out the process etc I’d be very grateful! And sorry if this makes absolutely no sense, I tried to fit in as many points as possible without actually giving away my identity incase this ever gets back to him!

thank you in advance x

I agree with posting on the Legal area on Talk.

However, the first thing they will probably suggest (and you may have done this already) is to sit down, with a calendar if you can and your DH, and document every single event that he has had an interaction with a less than positive outcome - so the bullying, the putting the kids lives in danger, document ALL of it with dates & times and what was done. Go back as far as you can with this so that you can bring as complete a history of his negative involvement with your family to this hearing.

Best of luck with it all.

If Im honest, probably court is a good thing as I cannot see how he would succeed and this way it's all official.
I'd try to keep it factual and maybe less about some of the wider concerns. Even the private room for nappy change comment may not be considered a problem eg my niece has had her nappy changed in front of me loads I've never thought anything of it. If I'd needed to speak to my brother urgrntly and he was in a different room changing a nappy, I'd probably walk in to talk to him.
The thing to focus on is

• their names are both your decision
• your DP does not wish to have contact with his father and nor do you
• the children have had no or very little contact in their life to date
• that you are ok for him to have a letterbox contact and when kids are older they can decide if they want to see him
• Document any factual concerns around safeguarding which are easily evidenced

Thank you for sharing your experience! So yeah my partner, my ex and I all don’t agree to contact, my ex hasn’t been invited to the court hearing as he was left off the paperwork however he’s been mentioned by FIL and I’ve let it be known there’s a party missing from proceedings so hopefully if he gets permission to apply they’ll add my oldest child’s dad.

my partner experienced abuse from his dad for years, mainly emotional and psychological but occasionally physical too, and he’s said countless times that he doesn’t want the children to go through the same thing he did. Here’s to hoping the courts listen to that!

supposedly we are going to be hearing from cafcass before the first hearing, although I’m really not sure when they’ll fit it in given that we’re going into court two days after new year! I’m not sure my children would be asked if they want to see the man or not because of their ages, my older child is very competent and self aware but my youngest is still very young, and I definitely don’t want them being asked leading questions at their ages! But either way my youngest doesn’t remember him and the oldest doesn’t really care that much, they weren’t close with him at all.

he never had the children by himself, in my home the doors were always left open, at family gatherings the kids always stayed near us parents, and if we met in public it was always in children’s soft play centres. He asked to take them/oldest out for days into town and stuff but we said no, he offered to have them without us but again we said no, I always had my own home so I never once stayed under his roof even for one night so the kids haven’t either! There really isn’t a lost bond!

honestly I’ll keep your offer in mind, thank you so much!

I’ve copied my post and added it there too, thank you!

we weren’t really told much, however I have tried to build up fact files over the last few weeks. I luckily have all my of my messages with him but my partner does not as he deleted everything in order to move past the abuse! Hopefully that won’t become an issue.

thank you again!

@LivelyFish i genuinely do not think he is taking advice from his solicitor! the incestuous bit is really worrying me! if I am reading this right, your two children are girls?? that will be a big no from me and it would have been a no from the very beginning if your partner was aware of iffy behaviour. remember there is no smoke without fire!! what does your partner's mother say about all this and her husband's behaviour??

I can’t see how it would either, but I’m very worried that he will be given access just because he’s a grandparent!

as for the nappy change, of course I’d understand it can’t always be helped and kids do get changed around other family, I’ve seen countless family members be changed! However it’s the fact that he’d ask for privacy, go to be alone, close the door and every time without fail his dad would follow just to watch! Even if it’s nothing sinister it’s a boundary overstepped.

I have otherwise focused on all of the points you’ve raised though! My only issue is that a lot of things can’t be proven as my partner deleted all abusive messages off his phone to move past the shit his dad caused and many things happened in person. I can’t even prove my kids were uneasy and took hours to warm up around him as I never record them crying or anything! Hopefully with everything else we say it’ll be enough though! Thank you

He doesn’t even have a solicitor! But yeah they’re girls, I tried not to mention it but I must have slipped up somewhere!

my partner took years to open up about the abuse he experienced by his dad and even now I’m finding out new things. All the most alarming points such as the emotional incest have only come to light since I stopped contact myself! My partner just didn’t like his dad, wouldn’t want to be hugged/touched, didn’t like to look at him in the eyes and all he said to me was ‘my dad just makes me uncomfortable’ but I didn’t realise why! My partner was never inappropriately touched or anything and he’s made that clear to me, but his dad is a narcissistic bully and always thought he was owed everything by my partner so I think that’s where a lot of the issues stemmed from.

my partners mother isn’t with the man, they split up when my partner was a baby and she stayed in their home country whilst he came over to the UK and brought the boys with him. She’s not happy at all though and has told him he’s being selfish and burning bridges!

I’m guessing he doesn’t have a solicitor because any that he’s spoken to have said that he’s mad.

The name change thing is a power play. It's all a power play.

So sorry this is happening it sounds horrendous!! The only advice I'd give has been given by another poster. If it does make it to court hearings etc stay calm, no swearing and keep it factual rather than feelings, keep in control I can imagine he eventually won't. Everything he ever sends to emails texts etc keep a copy. My first thought also went to make sure the school and the clubs your kids go to are made aware and there is a strict no one picks them up except from x y and z and this is the password, phone me if anyone else turns up etc ... You never know what he could try so this was my first thought!

That could be a reason, although it seems that the mediator fed into his delusions slightly according to what he wrote in his application about them!

Oh trust me I know, it’s always been what he wants and if it’s not his way there’s an issue!

A mediator isn’t governed by a profession body like a lawyer is.

It definitely is a stressful experience! But yes I’ve got everything and my partner has got all the consistent messages/harassment since around Christmas last year!

I did think to contact the school but I was unsure if it would look bad if the court then allowed him to pick them up or something.. but I do want to tell them he’s not allowed to pick them up.

Oh I’m totally aware of this, although he seems to be under a different impression

This is quite possibly the craziest thing I've heard. I very much expect the magistrates to (politely) laugh him out of court and to give him a telling off.

I'm glad some grandparents get contact, my parents have seen DD everyday and did all school runs etc so I would have been most hopeful that if anything happened to me when she was small my parents could have applied for contact. But your FiL is entirely delusional. What you could do is move further away putting physical distance between you all that might help ease all of your MH anyway.

@LivelyFish Do inform school, it's normal for them to have a list of people who can't pick children up and he shouldn't be able to anyway if you haven't given him permission first anyway. It's always worth giving school an overview of any major family stressors so that they can keep a eye on DC and give more TLC

Perhaps your partner could talk to his phone provider about whether it is possible to recover deleted messages?

As previously said grandparents have few rights unless awarded guardianship by a court. I can't believe this is going ahead! Absolutely batshit.

The name change application could be a blessing in disguise due to how inappropriate it is and the level of control it shows as is him leaving your husband off. I don't think from what you say you have any concerns.

The court will not say he can pick up. I would tell the school and any clubs explicitly that their grandfather is not allowed to pick him up. You could even vaguely hint at court proceedings you are not allowed to talk about, so they know how serious this is.

No personal experience (though I do have a NC parent who would love to do something like this), but from what I’ve read, he hasn’t got a chance in hell. A solicitor has gladly taken his money to push ahead, but legally it doesn’t sound like he’s got a leg to stand on. Get yourself a solicitor. I would see if you can recoup your legal costs from him when the case is inevitably dropped. Take your solicitor’s advice, of course, but if possible, i wouldn’t even give him the satisfaction of seeing you appear in court if it gets that far. Your solicitor may be able to just handle it on your behalf (while laughing all the way at this fool!). 100% no contact from now. Get a non-molestation order if you need to. Your dc are very lucky to have parents willing to protect them like you are.

Hes in for a rude awakening.

I would scrap the car thing personally. But the organisations mentioned by other posters can also advise. I think he has a very weak case, so simply saying he made these threats and you have been uneasy about whether he would follow through is I think fine. In the meantime get a Ring doorbell or similar so if he does commit any vandalism, you have a recording of it.

I think following you when you are changing the babies nappy is a fact, but whether it matters is interpretation only. You don't want to come over as being hysterical. I do not think you are, but I personally would leave that out. The photo of your DH naked when a child I would also leave out. TBH photos like this were common in the past and just seen as cute. It might mean more in your FILs case, but it could easily be seen as you being a bit hysterical.

Just focus on the fact he does not really have a relationship with the children. Not seen them when he was abroad for a year, never been alone with them or taken them out alone for the day, and only seen them sporadically. It might be good to list how many times he saw them in a year if it is fairly low. It does not matter that one of them is not his biological grandchild, the legislation about a child's right to continue seeing an adult that has had an important relationship with them and can apply to non biologically related adults.

And then talk about why you broke contact i.e. he he was rude to you in front of the children and upset them, by forcing his affections if you mean he tried to cuddle them when they did not want to be cuddled for example, then say that explicitly. Also say that your DH stopped seeing his father a while ago because he was so upset at how his father treated him. But you carried on seeing him to facilitate a relationship between him and his GC, but had to stop contact because of the negative impact on the children - even though the contact was sporadic. Emphasise that he behaved poorly towards you and their father, and that his attempt to change their names against both his parents wishes is a continuation of how his behaviour was never reasonable or nice towards you and their father.

Maybe say that you are happy for him to send cards and letters so they know who granddad is. And when they get old enough to talk on the phone to him, but only if they want to. But you do not think that upsetting the children by his behaviour towards you and them, is at all beneficial towards the children, given the relationship was so sporadic.

I do not think he has any chance of being granted contact.

Honestly this is not true. Although it is rare, the courts can grant access to children to any adult who has had a significant relationship with a child, that is unjustly stopped. This could be a grandparent, but it could also be a step parent, say a step mother who did a large amount of care for a child. It is about the childs best interests though, not grandparents or any other adults rights. And it is about an adult who would be seen as a significant carer for the child, not sporadic visits.