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(Warning: racism) How to reply to this racist text?

54 replies

isthereaway · 08/11/2024 08:57

Old friend of many decades (now 60) Geographically distant, rarely see so mostly text comms. Recent quick 'chat' about some old pics a mutual friend had found from a 6th form party. I shared one of old friend & I. Not keen to share any (more drunken) others so, when asked I say: 'oh, no more for sharing, bit of a Rakes Progress!'.
Friend then says: "So in these latest, you & (mutual friend) are hunched over a game of cards, while a debt collector rubs his hands together and a Jew in the corner licks his lips? I saw the originals once & was not impressed".
Somewhat stunned I reply: "excuse me: "a Jew in the corner???"
To which I get the reply: 'yeah, I knew you'd pick that up. Is 'a Roman Catholic' in the corner any better'? (I was RC)
This person had form for making the odd stupid remark as a teen but by late 50's there is no excuse for this racism. Also, the 'yeah, I knew you'd pick it up' seems like teenage attention seeking? I'm not going to continue this text friendship now but I do feel upset by it (we were close growing up & chat quite often) so (sorry for long intro) can anyone suggest a pithy reply as I don't wish to ignore (appears I condone it?) OR 'go on' (shows him he's upset me)

OP posts:
Mostlyoblivious · 08/11/2024 09:35

The Harlots Progress.

edited to add the website link:
https://cle.ens-lyon.fr/anglais/arts/peinture/william-hogarth-the-harlot-s-progress

(Warning: racism) How to reply to this racist text?
VitaminSubtle · 08/11/2024 09:58

Sethera · 08/11/2024 09:05

"Your racism over the years has brought me to a point where my disgust outweighs any vestiges of our friendship, so I won't be contacting you again."

But is there any evidence whatsoever that this friend has ever been racist, far less been consistently racist over the years? This reference certainly doesn’t seem so to me, as he’s referring to a stock character in stock scenes of dissipation such as those by Hogarth.

I know I said something jokily referencing Jane Eyre to a friend who got engaged to a man with a large old house — something like ‘Make sure you check the attic first and watch out for madwomen burning bed curtains’. I wasn’t being unpleasant about people from the Caribbean, or people with MH issues.

XelaM · 08/11/2024 10:04

VitaminSubtle · 08/11/2024 09:31

Well, there’s definitely a Jewish character in The Harlot’s Progress, so he’s possibly thinking of that, but surely it’s fairly clear, he’s referring to the kind of paintings of dissipation where there’s a Jewish moneylender salivating in a corner over how much money is coming his way? Those depictions are frequently antisemitic, sure, but him neutrally referencing stock characters as they appear in that type of image (the moneylender, the card sharps, the Jew) isn’t.

You’ve completely misunderstood.

This. I'm Jewish and I wouldn't take offence to this 🤷‍♀️

ElaborateCushion · 08/11/2024 10:07

"If you knew I'd pick up on it, you know it's offensive. Did you mean to be so blatantly racist?" then block!

Sethera · 08/11/2024 10:07

VitaminSubtle · 08/11/2024 09:58

But is there any evidence whatsoever that this friend has ever been racist, far less been consistently racist over the years? This reference certainly doesn’t seem so to me, as he’s referring to a stock character in stock scenes of dissipation such as those by Hogarth.

I know I said something jokily referencing Jane Eyre to a friend who got engaged to a man with a large old house — something like ‘Make sure you check the attic first and watch out for madwomen burning bed curtains’. I wasn’t being unpleasant about people from the Caribbean, or people with MH issues.

I'm going by the OP saying he has form for it.

isthereaway · 08/11/2024 10:10

VitaminSubtle · 08/11/2024 09:31

Well, there’s definitely a Jewish character in The Harlot’s Progress, so he’s possibly thinking of that, but surely it’s fairly clear, he’s referring to the kind of paintings of dissipation where there’s a Jewish moneylender salivating in a corner over how much money is coming his way? Those depictions are frequently antisemitic, sure, but him neutrally referencing stock characters as they appear in that type of image (the moneylender, the card sharps, the Jew) isn’t.

You’ve completely misunderstood.

Ah, I take your point that he may have picked up on my reference & muddled 'A Rakes Progress' with 'A Harlot's Progress' & referenced a 'stock character' in that. Factual not racist?

But then he says: 'I knew you'd pick up on that, (so - why say it?) would ref to (my) religion be any better?' (answer: not really, stereotypes are usually referenced perjoratively, plus he's been quite sneery about RC in the past too)

Then asks for the pics again (pushy!) So, my conclusion is: poss debatable whether deliberately racist (my 1st instinct), but certainly poor taste (would I say that? - not in casual conversation no & even if discussing the characters in the other set of pics I'd be careful of my language). I shall not bother to keep in touch with him.

OP posts:
Cheesecakeisntcheese · 08/11/2024 10:11

roxyro · 08/11/2024 09:05

Just get over it.

No

soupfiend · 08/11/2024 10:19

isthereaway · 08/11/2024 10:10

Ah, I take your point that he may have picked up on my reference & muddled 'A Rakes Progress' with 'A Harlot's Progress' & referenced a 'stock character' in that. Factual not racist?

But then he says: 'I knew you'd pick up on that, (so - why say it?) would ref to (my) religion be any better?' (answer: not really, stereotypes are usually referenced perjoratively, plus he's been quite sneery about RC in the past too)

Then asks for the pics again (pushy!) So, my conclusion is: poss debatable whether deliberately racist (my 1st instinct), but certainly poor taste (would I say that? - not in casual conversation no & even if discussing the characters in the other set of pics I'd be careful of my language). I shall not bother to keep in touch with him.

Perhaps he meant he knew you would pick up on it because you take offence at things that arent offensive?

What is the offense exactly that you feel, that he referenced a character (albeit the wrong progress), who was Jewish? Or do you suspect he sees Jewish people in that way?

BMW6 · 08/11/2024 10:25

Goody2ShoesAndTheFilthyBeast · 08/11/2024 09:12

"To which I get the reply: 'yeah, I knew you'd pick that up. "

I think the best reply to that is "and yet you chose to type it. That says a lot about you"

Then block him.

Absolutely!

MinistryofThyme · 08/11/2024 10:29

XelaM · 08/11/2024 10:04

This. I'm Jewish and I wouldn't take offence to this 🤷‍♀️

Same. You're clearly now looking for an excuse to disengage, which is fair enough and your choice, but I don't think personally think you can list this as the 'final straw'. You've misunderstood.

isthereaway · 08/11/2024 10:30

@soupfiend well he said 'the X in the corner, licking his lips'. Insert 'Jew', 'RC' whatever you wish, it's clearly meant to be pejorative. He 'had form' at school (was actually Suspended on one occasion). Clearly he has not changed.

OP posts:
isthereaway · 08/11/2024 10:35

I need to do some other things now but I appreciate all the comments which have been helpful in showing a range of responses. I've decided I find his texts upsetting enough to disengage.
I don't believe in ghosting people so I will just say that, then ignore him.

OP posts:
PurebredRacingUnicorn · 08/11/2024 10:39

Your friend could just as easily have said 'the loan shark in the corner' which would not have involved reference to any religion or ethnicity, though I suppose it might have upset some members of the loan shark community.

VitaminSubtle · 08/11/2024 10:47

isthereaway · 08/11/2024 10:30

@soupfiend well he said 'the X in the corner, licking his lips'. Insert 'Jew', 'RC' whatever you wish, it's clearly meant to be pejorative. He 'had form' at school (was actually Suspended on one occasion). Clearly he has not changed.

Look, you just misunderstood the reference, and that set the tone for the rest of the conversation. A ‘Catholic in the corner licking his lips’ wouldn’t make sense in the context of Hogarth-style scenes of dissipation, because Catholics aren’t pejoratively associated with avarice and moneylending.

If your old photos had involved student misbehaviour at a Catholic chaplaincy weekend away or something, he could have made a similar joky reference to those 16thc satirical paintings of naughty monks and nuns sneaking communion wine and shagging.

That still doesn’t make him anti-Catholic.

(Warning: racism) How to reply to this racist text?
BenditlikeBridget · 08/11/2024 10:50

I see misunderstanding and pomposity. I think you were the first one to reference an artist who relies on unflattering stereotypes though. You opened that door.

Fifiesta · 08/11/2024 10:56

The ‘friend’ sounds boring and is being goady towards you.
I only stay life-long friends with people that I enjoy spending time/or enjoy staying in touch with,
This clearly isn’t the case, so cut them lose.

soupfiend · 08/11/2024 11:04

BenditlikeBridget · 08/11/2024 10:50

I see misunderstanding and pomposity. I think you were the first one to reference an artist who relies on unflattering stereotypes though. You opened that door.

Yes this the bit I dont get, OP starts talking about a series of pictures all of which have horrible cartoonish stereotypes of everyone in the story and although its not the Rakes progress but the Harlots progress which has a Jewish character so he got muddled with that, you cant really separate out one stereotype from another in those.

But as others have said, if you want to end the friendship then do so.

PumpkinPeople · 08/11/2024 11:20

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn at OP's request

anyolddinosaur · 08/11/2024 11:38

He muddled up 2 sets of paintings - or maybe was suggesting the behaviour was perhaps more similar to the Harlot's progress.

You can stop communicating with anyone for any reason at all but calling him racist for this is a stretch. You chose to refer to a painter known for stereotypes, examine your own motivation.

VegTrug · 08/11/2024 11:47

Sethera · 08/11/2024 09:24

It's perfectly clear and neither the words or phrasing are obsolete. If he's 60 years old and knows who Hogarth is, I am sure he will understand it. We don't all descend into text speak the minute we pick up a mobile phone.

Nobody this side of the Napoleonic war speaks the way you did in that post! 😆

Jessie1259 · 08/11/2024 11:48

He sounds like a pompous arse and general all round not very nice bloke whatever way you take it - so I think you've made the right decision.

Sethera · 08/11/2024 11:53

VegTrug · 08/11/2024 11:47

Nobody this side of the Napoleonic war speaks the way you did in that post! 😆

You mean, you don't know anyone who speaks like that, and you take your circle of friends and acquaintances as being representative of the entire English-speaking population of the world.

JennySayQuoi · 08/11/2024 12:03

soupfiend · 08/11/2024 11:04

Yes this the bit I dont get, OP starts talking about a series of pictures all of which have horrible cartoonish stereotypes of everyone in the story and although its not the Rakes progress but the Harlots progress which has a Jewish character so he got muddled with that, you cant really separate out one stereotype from another in those.

But as others have said, if you want to end the friendship then do so.

I think OP's friend was referencing A Rake's Progress - the moneylender in the corner in Plate 6 is stroking a pile of coins, and aristocratic Georgians would have talked of "going to the Jews" if they fell on pecuniary times. Hogarth's contemporary viewers would have understood this reference, without it needing to be a named Jewish character. (However anachronistic to modern ears)

STBXFriend could have picked any number of allusions to the engravings, but chose this one to - presumably - rile OP, esp given the follow-up message.

Obviously it worked, cos here we are!

VitaminSubtle · 08/11/2024 12:04

isthereaway · 08/11/2024 10:35

I need to do some other things now but I appreciate all the comments which have been helpful in showing a range of responses. I've decided I find his texts upsetting enough to disengage.
I don't believe in ghosting people so I will just say that, then ignore him.

It’s madness to throw away a friendship of more than forty years because you misunderstood a reference, despite yourself being the one to have referenced Hogarth in the first place!

Sayoonara · 08/11/2024 12:20

Of course he was being goady, he could have just said moneylender. Instead he jumped at the chance to be anti-Semitic under guise of an artistic reference.

I know a few people who throw in literary and artistic references to conversation. Not one of us would have said what OP's friend did.

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