Autistic child being extremely unkind

[unkindness]

Is this a development stage ? I don’t know what to do.

dd is 5, diagnosed at 3. In the last month (since starting school) has started being extremely unkind to her siblings and us . It’s not things to our knowledge she has ever been exposed to as we are kind and gentle parent etc. She is coming out with awful things and then is visibly ecstatic when she upsets or hurts someone?

Is this some kind of emotion test? Some kind of way to see people’s reactions? Has she seen or heard unkindness at school and is just copying? I don’t know how to deal with it. I have been saying it’s not nice to make other people sad but she just asks ‘why?’ And if I explain it further she just stares like she doesn’t understand at all she just wants the reaction ?

She will then really study for the reaction she’s expecting / has seen from others (I have to assume at school)

Children experience behaviour consequences before they learn the concept behind this. That's how they develop these concepts, through the consistent association of an appropriate negative consequence for undesirable actions. It is at this point their theories develop, they don't suddenly arrive with them fully formed out of nowhere.

I obviously don't know the full situation but it's hard to see that you are doing her any favours in not showing that there and (fair) consequences for unkind actions. You can consistently explain to her each time why she is experiencing the consequence that you choose.

It is different for a child with autism. A time out would just scare her. A punishment would just be confusing for her. We are trying to show her alternative ways to behave that get her praise . This is a very new situation for us since she has started school and it’s a huge change for her we don’t want to make her safe place - home - suddenly somewhere that unfamiliar negative and scary things she won’t understand the reasoning behind happen to her.

One example is that when she is very distressed we calm her with some very specific words and actions. We have been doing this to comfort her siblings if she has been unkind or hurt them to give her the association and she may recall how she feels when she receives those words / that touch which might trigger off the thought process as to how they are feeling when they need that.

I remember at that age asking how DS1 would feel if someone said xxx to him (I can’t remember exactly what but I think it was a comment on physical appearance) to get a blank look, followed by ‘but if it’s true I know it so I wouldn’t care’.

Social niceties have sometimes to be taught very differently to a child with ASD. We still spend a surprising amount of time (he’s 12) constructing social scaffolding for him. And sometimes he will say ‘but I don’t understand’ swiftly followed these days by ‘but don’t worry, I’ll do it, I just don’t know why I’m doing it’. Poor sausage, the NT world is very strange to him.

Who told you that it would scare her? My children all have ASD and all got appropriate 'calm down time'. In fact, one of my children used to stomp off to the bottom step of the stairs and put herself in 'time out' when she knew she'd done wrong.

If she's saying something completely unrelated (such as the wellies) it might be that she liked the look on the child's face, or she likes the way it sounds... Either way, I wouldn't give it air time. Simply say "Well it's a good job Arthur doesn't have any wellies like that, isn't it. Right, Arthur, what game are we playing next?" Bright and breezy, move on.

The more attention you give it, the more important it gets to both of your children.

Out family member is now really 20s. Your description brings back a lot of memories of the challenge of ND in a NT world.

He still doesn't get why hurting is wrong, it has been a very challenging. I understand some people who are ND have empathy and capacity to develop it. But equally I have seen family members where they simply hasn't been possible.

But some don't, with professionals we have devised a variety of solutions as they aged. There are countless different approaches and unfortunately you may need to try a good few before you find the right one.

I appreciate it's hard, I work with autistic young people.

Of course with autism there can be challenges with understanding another person's perspective and putting themselves in another person's shoes. The explanations that go down these route can often fail to land, as it were, as the complexities of the social world can be incomprehensible.

But you still want to support a child to develop a sense of right and wrong, and so it's a question of finding out the best way to achieve this, without overwhelming a child or escalating a situation. Consistent, reasonable consequences that a child can reliably pair with their own actions can often provide them with stability, safety, rules and predictability, and can support them to understand the world around them.

Learning that you can affect other peoples emotions is a part of development I think. People also sometime seek to do this to help themselves feel better. Forget trying to teach empathy and set rules - we do not say xyz to other people, we do not do this and then set consequence.

I think it starts with understanding that children with ASD don't learn by osmosis. They don't learn by being in the same environment as NT peers. They, often, don't learn by example. They learn by rote, by overlearning, by repetition. But they also learn precisely. So when they learn that something is 'unacceptable', they are learning that for a specific scenario is unacceptable, and if the context changes, they have to learn all over again.

E.g. the wellies. When you're saying 'We don't say mean things to Arthur about wellies', what you're 'teaching' is 'don't be unkind about what people are wearing'. But what the autistic child learns is 'Don't tell Arthur his wellies are ugly'. So then they need to learn that it isn't just the wellies, it's other things they belong to them. Then they need to learn that it isn't just Arthur, it's everyone.

That's why social stories can be really helpful. They set out a story that gives rules that the autistic person can rely on to help them in a situation.

My son is 4 and has ASD and we are experiencing this alot lately. If you've met 1 autistic child then you've met 1 autistic child. They are all different, and what works for 1 child might not work for yours. We are seeing a psychologist for parent coaching to find a way to deal with our sons behaviour because we are experiencing alot of aggression from him and have always done so. What has worked for other parents has never worked for us. It's hard when others judge you when you're trying your best. When my son is hitting, biting, kicking, pulling my hair mkd meltdown, he knows he's hurting me but he doesn't care, it's almost as if he's pleased. And the same goes for the name calling "you're not beautiful, I don't like or love you, you are horrible".
Luckily he can keep it together at school but it is hard. In the moment, peak anger his emotions completely flood him and the only thing we can do is try to calm him down. Because anything else is like pouring petrol on a bonfire. Since he started his new school in Sept we have been lucky because the cohort is really lovely and DS tends to copy the behaviour around him. If we take him somewhere where the kids are being mean or rougher he will often copy what they're doing or saying.

Right and wrong applies to us all, OP, including animals.

If your DD’s cognate enough to be in school, she’s got enough brainpower to learn cruelty isn’t ok. From you. No one else will tell her - she’ll just be separated from others.

Try the trad methods. Persevere. (Priority is the child at risk.) Try another method, and another, and another till one works. Sorry.

Focus on your end goal; DD being able to have a friend or two, mix with others, and enjoy life in the future.

I know that but the concept of right and wrong is hard to explain to dd who has little understanding of most things. Although her behaviour currently is undesirable im
wondering is it the start of more understanding as she is clearly witnessing interactions good and bad at school and taking that all in and re enacting it?

She is diagnosed with autism. This is it. Perhaps you need to speak to your paediatrician about these behaviours to gain more understanding. Also, each autistic child is as different as any other children are.

Hi OP, I'm autistic, with autistic children, and work supporting autistic learners. I completely agree with your approach, and think you're quite right to avoid artificial 'consequences'.
I wonder about approaching this from the other end, so to speak, so instead of thinking about what happens after, focusing on what happens before. Your DD is expressing her distress in an unlucky way, but what's causing the distress? See if you can identify the situations that trigger the upset, and then think about how we reduce those. It absolutely sounds like some gestalt learning going on here, picking up phrases from school and testing them out in a home setting. I wonder if she's experimenting with cause and effect, or has picked these phrases up as a surefire way to get fast adult engagement?
Do you know of Dr Ross Greene's work? He's ace, and I really rate his Collaborative and Proactive Solutions approach to solving these kind of difficulties.

And don't forget to add "living an authentic autistic life" and "developing a positive autistic self-identity" to that list!
Success isn't measured by how neurotypical you can appear to others.

You need to ensure your ds, whom she made cry, is well supported too. By being exposed to the bad behaviour of his sibling on a regular basis, it will probably affect him emotionally long term. I see this happen time and time again with siblings with SN being enabled by their parents, resulting in their siblings needs being ignored.

Try “That’s not allowed”.

On repeat.

You are doing everything right, and are so clearly seeking the best approach to communicate with her and help her develop understanding.

Sometimes you need to forget your own NT outlook and use ND logic. “Stop! That’s not allowed! No making people cry!”!

You may need to refine it- stop making children cry. Stop saying mean things. It’s not allowed.

ND people will often go with the letter of the law rather than the spirit, will stick to the rational choice rather than the kind choice. So a rational explanation- it’s not allowed- may be enough.

DD2 found it so hard to lose a game. We realised it would stop her being invited to play games. So we played games and we modelled 'good losing'. If she lost (not engineered) we explained that we clap the winner. She hated it! But one day, she lost and she shut her eyes and pursed her lips and clapped furiously. She still doesn't like losing but it helped her learn how to lose, so that she can enjoy winning.

DN has autism and can be awful and incredibly mean to DS who is years younger. But is often like this with children in his year at school too and so has no friends. With him it’s because he’s become fixated on competing and comparing himself against other kids and it’s a manifestation of his anxieties.

The child psychologist they spoke told sil the best way to manage his anxieties is to manage bed times appropriately (ie routines, ensure he’s in bed by 6pm, dark room) and ensure he eats a balanced diet with lots of good proteins and fats so there’s no carb crash during the day as that seems to make things worse.

In the mean time you absolutely must parent the unkind words. Role model how to speak nicely. Tell her explicitly when she says something that is unkind and tell her that if she keeps saying things like that then she will lose friends (not make them). She needs to learn the consequences of her actions.

Yes I think it is some way of her processing things she’s seen and heard at school I’m going to chat to the teacher as well just to see if there’s anything they can suggest or if they’ve seen anything that might explain why she’s suddenly doing and saying certain things

Could be a mix of exhaustion plus copying school behaviour.

When she says these things could you ask when she has heard these comments before. Who said them and to whom. Why? Help her unpick what’s going on at school and make judgments about what’s ok and not ok.

She isn’t actually very verbal at all. She rarely speaks except to copy phrases which are used to communicate but at school doesn’t actually speak at all. So for her to be saying things like this I’m assuming they are things she’s heard and remembered which explains why she was being unkind about wellies Ds doesn’t even own or saying his hair was black.

I am cautious to give an opinion, but having worked with autistic kids in the past, I think this theory is good. I wonder if "upset" reactions are actually more pronounced and predictable so feel clearer if that make sense? Like if she hits her brother, or takes a puzzle piece from him, he WILL cry, or SHOUT, be CROSS. If she tries to help him do his puzzle, he might thank her, he might let her join in, but ignore her, or he might be cross she's done it when he wanted to? Could she be trying to join in with him, but only in situations where she can predict his reaction because that feels safe? Could you create situations where they do activities with clear "rules"? Like taking turns to put a puzzle piece in, or doing something at the same time? I guess a lot of the way "typical" kids play together involves subtle understanding: "from shall we do X?" and working out from the person's reaction whether they REALLY want to do X, to working out whether you are too forward like annoying someone by finishing it faster, or too behind, like doing it slowly when you'd like help to finish more quickly. Is your daughter trying to make everything more predictable?