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Original poster

Strange legal question.....

57 replies

CurlewKate · 26/10/2024 12:13

My friend rented a musical instrument over 20 years ago. Unaccountably, she is still paying the £20 rental, even though the instrument was lost in a move long ago.🤔.

She got a letter last week asking for the instrument back. She replied saying that she had now paid more than twice the instrument's worth in rental, so she would just stop paying rent and they would call it quits. They have just replied saying that they wouldn't accept this as it was a rental agreement, not some form of hire purchase, and they want her to pay the full cost of the instrument or they are going to take her to court. Are they being reasonable? Is there anything she can do?

OP posts:
PerpetualPeppa · 26/10/2024 12:14

she would need to read the terms of the agreement as it will state there when and in what circumstances they can request the instrument back

Original poster
CurlewKate · 26/10/2024 12:22

Pretty sure she won't have a copy of the agreement-she's the sort of person who has been paying £20 a month for 20 years for a non existent musical instrument!

OP posts:
OldJohn · 26/10/2024 12:25

I wonder what would happen if she stopped the £20 monthly payments. Would the company then demand money and if so she could demand a copy of the original agreement

Original poster
CurlewKate · 26/10/2024 12:39

I assume it's just a standard rental agreement with a month's (or something) on either side. I also assume that they're technically in the right......

OP posts:
MadMadMad · 26/10/2024 12:43

They will have a copy of the rental agreement as it will be a standard one and it will almost certainly say that they have to hand the instrument back in reasonable condition or pay for a replacement. Whilst common sense would say after twenty years she has more than “bought” it legally they are probably within their rights to enforce the original agreement.

DancingPhantomsOnTheTerrace · 26/10/2024 12:43

I suppose if she still had the instrument, she wouldn't be able to refuse to give it back because of the amount she'd paid. So since she can't give it back, I'd assume they're right.

pinkyredrose · 26/10/2024 12:51

Why on earth didn't she tell them at the time? A rental agreement isn't hire purchase, they're right. That she's paid over what the instrument was worth is of no significance, as far as they're concerned she wanted to keep renting it.

MiraculousLadybug · 26/10/2024 12:52

I'd ask them for a copy of the rental agreement. What I'd be looking for is what it says about the length of time the agreement was for. Because if she's been paying them for years after the agreement expired, then I'd imagine that should be taken as payment for the actual instrument, but if it's an endless rental with no fixed term, then it doesn't matter if she's paid for the instrument with the rent (unfortunately, just like houses), she will likely have to pay for the instrument again. In which case, I would be tempted offer to pay them £20 a month.

SausageinaBun · 26/10/2024 12:54

After 20 years, what would the instrument actually be worth? I don't think they could expect the cost of a new instrument, but the value of a 20 year old one, which would probably be very little.

Whaleandsnail6 · 26/10/2024 12:55

I feel like your friend is in the wrong here. There is no proof that she has not had the instrument for years, only her say so.

I think the only thing she can argue is as to whether she needs to pay the cost of a a completely brand new one or a percentage amount for how old this instrument was.

Fraaahnces · 26/10/2024 12:56

She could ask them to send a copy of the agreement

purplebeansprouts · 26/10/2024 12:57

Yeah she can't wiggle out of this one. She owes them a piano or whatever it is

purplebeansprouts · 26/10/2024 12:57

Whaleandsnail6 · 26/10/2024 12:55

I feel like your friend is in the wrong here. There is no proof that she has not had the instrument for years, only her say so.

I think the only thing she can argue is as to whether she needs to pay the cost of a a completely brand new one or a percentage amount for how old this instrument was.

Taking into account some instruments aren't necessarily better when they are new

TeenLifeMum · 26/10/2024 12:58

SausageinaBun · 26/10/2024 12:54

After 20 years, what would the instrument actually be worth? I don't think they could expect the cost of a new instrument, but the value of a 20 year old one, which would probably be very little.

Totally depends. Some instruments go up in value depending on the make etc.

How do you lose a musical instrument? Does she live in a mansion?

Legally, she’ll probably have to pay as the business model isn’t to purchase, they now can’t hire it to anyone else and continue to make money so need it to be replaced to continue the business model. The fact she could have bought one is on her, not the hire company.

MiraculousLadybug · 26/10/2024 12:58

SausageinaBun · 26/10/2024 12:54

After 20 years, what would the instrument actually be worth? I don't think they could expect the cost of a new instrument, but the value of a 20 year old one, which would probably be very little.

That's a very good point. Assuming it's a student model or mid-range one rather than a Stradivarius, they wouldn't really be able to rent out an instrument that's so old again to another person, either, so they have suffered no loss that they can't rent it out while she's sorting this out with them, either.

Iloveglitterballs · 26/10/2024 12:59

When people rent something out, they don't necessarily stop renting it when they've received over the item's worth. If the instrument in question should be expected to still be in a good usable condition, regardless of age, then it's not for your friend to decide she doesn't have to replace it. However, whether she should pay the "as new" price is another matter. Why on earth did she not return it much earlier, and before it got lost. I'm assuming it's not a big instrument if it could get mislaid so easily?

MiraculousLadybug · 26/10/2024 13:01

TeenLifeMum · 26/10/2024 12:58

Totally depends. Some instruments go up in value depending on the make etc.

How do you lose a musical instrument? Does she live in a mansion?

Legally, she’ll probably have to pay as the business model isn’t to purchase, they now can’t hire it to anyone else and continue to make money so need it to be replaced to continue the business model. The fact she could have bought one is on her, not the hire company.

Show quote history

It depends if it's a piano or a flute/oboe/clarinet/piccolo etc. A small black box is easy to miss on a high shelf. Obviously if it's a piano, that's a bit different.

allthemiddlechildrenoftheworld · 26/10/2024 13:11

@CurlewKate what kind of musical instrument was it?? there is a difference between a double base and an oboe! was it easy to lose?

TheCoolOliveBalonz · 26/10/2024 13:13

The real question to my mind is, would they pursue it if she were to just stop paying? I suspect they wouldn't.

yeaitsmeagain · 26/10/2024 13:24

£20 a month? And she didn't notice for 20 years?

How did they even know her address to send the letter to if she'd moved years back? Or was she also still paying for her mail to be forwarded and a million other things she no longer needs as well?!

I've got an old recorder she can rent for £5 a month for the next 20 years if she likes.

purplebeansprouts · 26/10/2024 13:25

TheCoolOliveBalonz · 26/10/2024 13:13

The real question to my mind is, would they pursue it if she were to just stop paying? I suspect they wouldn't.

They might do if they are winding up the business

jen337 · 26/10/2024 13:31

purplebeansprouts · 26/10/2024 12:57

Yeah she can't wiggle out of this one. She owes them a piano or whatever it is

I’d be well impressed if someone managed to lose a piano during a house move!

Mipil · 26/10/2024 13:37

Legally, they are correct. She will have to pay for a replacement. What instrument is it? A 20 year old student flute would probably be worth nothing but even a student violin may have increased in value.

If it was lost, can she claim on her insurance? Did the rental agreement include insurance? Did she pay a deposit?

She really needs to ask for a copy of the rental agreement.

Dragonflysparkles · 26/10/2024 13:41

Did she keep paying the 20 so she didn’t need to own up about losing it, and having to replace? I’m afraid it is almost certain she will need to replace or pay. She can ask for a copy of the agreement.

MargaretThursday · 26/10/2024 13:57

MiraculousLadybug · 26/10/2024 12:58

That's a very good point. Assuming it's a student model or mid-range one rather than a Stradivarius, they wouldn't really be able to rent out an instrument that's so old again to another person, either, so they have suffered no loss that they can't rent it out while she's sorting this out with them, either.

Show quote history

I learnt on the school violins which were definitely over 25 years old, because they'd come from the old school. My current violin is now around 50 years old, although rarely played, is still absolutely fine - and it was a cheap one when we got it.

Dd2 learnt on dh's trumpet up to grade 6, which was a beginner's trumpet bought 40 years previously.
I know my cousin's dd is learning on her first flute which will be approaching 40 years old soon.

These were all learner cheap instruments but still more than good enough for beginners for the first few grades.

I'd suggest she buys a new or second hand learner instrument locally and offers that. That's probably both the fairest and cheapest thing to do.

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