Strange legal question.....

[CurlewKate]

My friend rented a musical instrument over 20 years ago. Unaccountably, she is still paying the £20 rental, even though the instrument was lost in a move long ago.🤔.

She got a letter last week asking for the instrument back. She replied saying that she had now paid more than twice the instrument's worth in rental, so she would just stop paying rent and they would call it quits. They have just replied saying that they wouldn't accept this as it was a rental agreement, not some form of hire purchase, and they want her to pay the full cost of the instrument or they are going to take her to court. Are they being reasonable? Is there anything she can do?

I'm assuming by "lost" they mean nicked

When people rent houses, they don’t get to own them after a certain amount of time.

if you hire a car, you don’t own it at the point you’ve paid the equivalent of what it’s worth.

same principle applies here.

interesting that you didn’t post this in the Legal Matters forum…….

She needs to give it back. At no point did she own it, it wasn’t hers to lose.

Yes it would really help to know the type of instrument. My flutes and piccolo all went to shit after about 10 years with multiple issues that affected the tone and the look of the instrument, and it's uncommon for flutes to last a very long time without expensive maintenance (which most students won't know about or pay to get done) such as replating, replacing the cork in the head joint and replacing the finger pads/adjusting them to get the right sound again.

I don't know about violins at all but with wind instruments, the make (and sometimes model) is usually engraved on the piece, so the company would know they weren't getting exactly the same instrument back. I think she would need to get their agreement before spending more money on another instrument to offer.

Well if they've had a piano nicked, then I'm sure they'll be able to pick up a free one easily enough. There's always loads on marketplace that they're trying to give away.

<imagines thief creeping away with a piano in his swag bag>

The type of instrument is immaterial until the friend has seen a copy of the actual agreement she signed and the terms she agreed to. That is her first step. Pointless trying to recall the finer detail.

It’s not like a piece of tech that would be obsolete after 20 years, I’d assume a violin or flute or whatever could still be rented out when it’s 20 years old, so she needs to replace it, and take more care of other people’s stuff in future!

So she's paid around £5k over 20 years for an instrument she no longer has? If they haven't contacted her was she just going to shell out £20 a month for ever more? This is really on her. Back in the day when it was common to rent TVs etc we didn't just say we owned them when we totted up the cost and it came to more than a new one. I'd be surprised at that cost thought if it was a professional quality instrument whatever it is, so after 20 years it probably wouldn't have appreciated in price. Few instruments do. She needs to tell them she no longer has it and deal with the consequences.

@ThatIsNotMyNameSoWhyAreYouCallingMeThat "interesting that you didn’t post this in the Legal Matters forum"
Not very interesting- I didn't know there was one! I haven't got any more facts, except that it was a clavichord-I vaguely remember having a play on it in her house many years ago. She says she didn't realise she was still paying the 20 quid-which sounds unbelievable unless you know her!

How can you lose a clavichord?! They’re not exactly small - quite niche instrument too - it’s not something you tuck in a cupboard and leave behind.

Quite frankly the rental company are taking the piss. £20 per month for 20 years, they’ve made thousands off her. Also how did they even track her down after so long and presumably several house moves?

If you rent a house for £800pm for 20 years you have paid £192,000 in rent but that means precisely nothing if you then want to buy the house, you still have to pay the market value. If an owner rents out any asset that rent is legitimately charged for that rental with zero rights against any future purchase being transferred.

Your friend has been foolish but yes she needs to pay the value of the instrument. She would have saved money if she'd admitted the loss at the time

Violins tend to retain value or increase as they age. The tone improves overtime. There might be an exception for a cheap mass market Chinese model for example but i imagine if it was good enough to rent it must have been ok quality in which case 20 years is nothing if it's a stringed classical instrument. Assume similar for acoustic guitar types too.

How, how do you lose a clavichord? Or do you mean “lost” as in sustained irreparable damage? Why on earth didn’t your friend say, on the point of moving, “Hey music shop, I’ve lost the clavichord. What do I need to do to put this right?”?

I know that’s not the point of the thread but this is all extremely strange and your friend now owes someone a very niche instrument.

How do you lose a clavichord? Not as big as a piano but easily the size of a table.

Probably nicked during moving

Unless she can tracks down what happened to it (and can get it back), I think she will be liable.

Even if she had forgotten she was paying rent on it, surely she must have know it wasn't hers at the time she 'lost' it?

They seem to be quite expensive...

Clavichords

You’d notice fairly quickly that it wasn’t there, surely.

I would have also thought there would have been a discussion about moving it in the first place. Having never moved a clavichord I wouldn’t know the issues associated with moving it but I’ve watched many a harpsichord be moved and it’s not like just moving a table.

Lol what was the instrument and where is it now ?

If she's "only" paid for it twice over, not 10x, it's quite a valuable instrument.

I would suggest she take it in and ask what they would sell it to her for. She might find they only charge her a few months' extra rent, which she knows she would barely notice.

She can't just claim it because she's paid rent. She knows this. If you pay rent on a house for twenty years you don't expect the owners to just give it to you for free, do you?

Usually, rental agreements require the renter to ensure that the instrument is insured.

With something like a Clavichord, which can easily remain perfectly serviceable for 60+ years, they're absolutely reasonable to expect the current value of one back - it's not as though it's an £80 student violin, after all.

If it was proper movers then there would have been a conversation about moving it. If it was a man with a van then they might have not taken it into consideration. With the lid down they can look like an odd console table.

Yes but if someone's done a drive by shove it on their van you wouldnt

You'd realise it wasn't there when you unpacked...