They don't want us to have a choice over death do they?

[Hunnymonster1]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2lyl8jrvlo.amp

This is so bloody annoying why are we so backward compared to other countries? Other countries have this sorted like america.In some states, belgium, holland, Switzerland.
They are not gonna allow this to happen are they? Which means the rich will go and pay dignitas and the poor will suffer. I am starting to get so annoyed by the mps of this country
Am I being unreasonable into thinking that they are backwards and should have given maybe the British public a referendum on a subject matter so important to individual people. If not a ref why is our country so backwards

It's quite interesting to see how many countries and when have introduced assisted dying.

If you blindly believe governments are doing this out of some sort of compassion, you are being very naive.

I'll try to make this simple.
My post was about the situation where disabled people - with no desire to die - have requested ramps or other adjustments but have been offered AD as an alternative solution.

It had nothing to do with anyone CHOOSING anything.

Please don’t be so rude.

You are adamant that AD is being suggested to disabled people as an alternative.

I see it that disabled people are being fully informed of all options, as is everyone else.

It has everything to do with people choosing. That is the whole point. Everyone should be free to choose the time and manner of their death. You would rather thousands live on in unbearable misery in case some slip through what will be robust safeguards.

And despite being non religious, I'm actually quite grateful to anyone who is and stands up against certain things....in a world where money is seen as the most important thing, it makes a nice change.

And yes I can easily see how this could be a slippery slope.

So at first, a terminal diagnosis of six months...very robust safeguards blah blah blah

Then perhaps it changes to a terminal diagnosis of a year.

Then perhaps they start to include conditions which are not terminal but which cause significant physical limitations.

Then perhaps it starts to include conditions which cause significant mental limitations.

Then perhaps, everyone is handed a leaflet upon a diagnosis of certain conditions.

Then perhaps in areas which are under funded, people are gently encouraged to consider it.

Yes these are just hypothetical but I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility.

So because of those hypotheticals, you believe it’s up to you and others with your viewpoint to force people to linger on in physical agony and mental anguish for months against their will?

That's a very odd interpretation of what I said.

I believe the risk of vulnerable people being coerced is too great...yes.

It’s all pretty academic anyway. Large majority of the public is in favour of the bill so if MPs vote according to the wishes of the people who put them there, it should pass. Not before time.

Comedycook

That’s a very odd interpretation of what I said

Is it? So you’re not against the bill?

Sorry if I was rude, but you seemed to be wilfully misrepresenting and misunderstanding my point.

Disabled people in Canada were offered death instead of help. They hadn't sought death and didn't want to die. This is horrific. How dare it be suggested to disabled people that their life is not worth living?
This could also happen here. And not just to disabled people, but also to ill, elderly or injured people.
"Oh, that medication for your condition is very expensive for the NHS... thought about getting bumped off instead?"

"I'm afraid your accident has left you paralysed and there will be years of expensive operations ahead... how about we just kill you instead?"

Well, it won't be expressed like that but that's the upshot. And where death becomes routinely offered there may then be an expectation or pressure to end ones own life out of a sense of duty.

And please stop saying that I support different "options" for different people. I don't support AD at all.

In theory I'm favour of people having a free choice.

In practice I feel that the risk of coercion and yes, the slippery slope...is too great...so if I did have a vote, I'd vote against it

Listen to people who have skin in the game. I do. Am I put down the minute I am economically inviable? Look at Canada. It is terrifying for many of us disabled people.

It really is.

TheFreaksShallInheritTheEarth

"Oh, that medication for your condition is very expensive for the NHS... thought about getting bumped off instead?"
"I'm afraid your accident has left you paralysed and there will be years of expensive operations ahead... how about we just kill you instead?

Some disabled people will want to choose those options. Others will have the choice to say no.

People who support AD, like myself (though I don’t think I would choose it myself) want to give people choices. People who do not want to seek to force others to live with unbearable pain and die without dignity because somehow that idea offends them.
No one has that right over others.

user47 · Today 12:01
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Listen to people who have skin in the game. I do.

With respect, we all do. Everyone will die. It’s the one great leveller. Some in brutal, horrifying ways. Do you have the right to take the choice to die with dignity at a time of their choosing away from those people because it doesn’t sit comfortably with you?

Look at how are media speaks about those on benefits....scroungers!

What if those who decide they don't want to die and instead receive medical treatment and care are seen as medical scroungers who are a drain on hard working taxpayers?

Comedycook
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In practice I feel that the risk of coercion and yes, the slippery slope...is too great...so if I did have a vote, I'd vote against it“

That risk is greater than the certainty of agonising deaths for so many? Really?

Thankfully the majority disagree with you.

I'm not sure they do necessarily.

But we're not actually disagreeing....like I said, in theory I agree that people should have a choice. It's just I don't have a huge amount of faith in the safeguards and I worry that the choice for many won't really be a free choice. What makes you have so much faith in it?

Comedycook
Look at how are media speaks about those on benefits....scroungers!
What if those who decide they don't want to die and instead receive medical treatment and care are seen as medical scroungers who are a drain on hard working taxpayers?

Most hard-working tax payers can’t see themselves ever relying on benefits.
Most can very easily see themselves becoming terminally ill so I don’t believe that will ever be an issue.

Those on DLA and pip are spoken about disgustingly by many. But any of us could become disabled

And as for medical professionals, yes the vast vast majority are decent and trustworthy but a quick Google of UK medical scandals brought up a terrifying list.

I largely support your position and AD doesnt "offend" me. The problem is, again, the potentially dangerous thin end of the wedge and an increasing expectation of, and pressure on, people in certain situations to end their lives.
There would become a culture of deeming certain lives or situations as not worth living and ripe for AD, even if the people themselves don't want that.

As PPs have said, ongoing palliative care could be scaled back in the expectation that those who need it opt for AD instead.
This negatively affects disabled and other vulnerable people far more than anyone else.

I think better healthcare and end of life care is what is needed. I think if that were available far fewer would be clamouring for AD.

Comedycook

. What makes you have so much faith in it?

I don’t have complete faith - though I do believe that Kim Ledbeater is genuine and will craft the wording with care. I also believe that the Lords will further refine the safeguards.
What I can’t tolerate about the status quo is that it perpetuates the horrible inequality in Britain today right up to and including death. Those in pain with money have choice, agency and dignity. Those without, don’t.

I also don’t buy this whole narrative of the millions of evil relatives rubbing their hands at the prospect of inheritance because in my world at least, which is all most of us can go on, most are innately good. Yes, of course there’ll be some but they will find a way anyway if that is their intent.
On balance, I believe the potential benefits far out-weight the potential risks.

TheFreaksShallInheritTheEarth

I think better healthcare and end of life care is what is needed. I think if that were available far fewer would be clamouring for AD“

I don’t believe people are clamouring. The opposite, it’s been a difficult and mostly respectful public debate, even, rarely, in the Commons!

In the end, though, far too many conditions reach a point where no amount of palliative care can alleviate the suffering of the individual or the distress of those who love and want the best possible ending for them.

I wonder how many who are against AD have been in the unfortunate position of having to watch a loved one waste away and die in pain?

I’m all for AD. I’ve seen enough….