Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Original poster

6500 extra teachers....

479 replies

noblegiraffe · 05/10/2024 15:11

This was one of Labour's main headline pledges. They were a bit vague on the details - is this 6500 more than the amount of teachers that are currently needed, or 6500 more than the Tories managed to recruit, which was well below the amount currently needed? I don't know.

Anyway, where are we at?
Teachers were awarded a 5.5% pay rise as recommended - good.
Ofsted single word judgements scrapped immediately - good.
PPA can now be taken from home - meh, maybe good for primary
Performance related pay scrapped -good

The situation:
Teacher trainee recruitment targets were massively missed again for this September so schools will continue to have unfilled vacancies next September.

The projected fall in pupil numbers due to decreasing birth rates won't be as big as expected so more primary teachers will be needed (and this will impact school funding as fewer pupils meant there was going to be potentially spare cash in the system).

Potentially more pupils in the state system from private could be balanced out by returning private teachers to state schools. That will take some time to shake out.

PGCE mentors are now expected to do 20 hours of training this year to be a mentor, and lead mentors 30 hours, regardless of how experienced they are. This is putting people off being mentors so PGCE providers are struggling to find placements for what few trainees they have.

Workload for teachers is increasing due to lack of funding, and lack of teachers, so they have less time to devote to training teachers. The lack of experienced teachers available to train them is also a problem. At the same time, the demands of training new teachers on schools has increased (e.g. the NQT year is now two years of support and reduced timetable and schools also need to provide PGCE students with 4 extra weeks of intensive training and practice).

This is an extremely urgent issue, and a key government pledge, so why all the airtime about anything to do with education is being taken up with bloody VAT is beyond me.

The impact of the lack of teachers in the system is huge. Inability to recruit teachers means kids have supply and cover teachers which affects their learning, but also their behaviour across the school as they become disaffected in those subjects. Experienced teachers are not only having to plan lessons for the supply teachers and sometimes mark for them too, they are having to pick up the pieces and fill in the gaps when they teach the classes the next year. Heads of Department are spending huge amounts of time fielding legitimate complaints about the quality of teaching. Advertising for positions that cannot be filled is expensive.

What do Labour need to do to turn this around?

6500 extra teachers....
6500 extra teachers....
OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Original poster
noblegiraffe · 05/10/2024 19:35

Lemonadeand · 05/10/2024 19:33

When I was training, there was a 9k grant. I think some people can’t afford to do PGCEs. They also used to do golden hellos for shortage subjects.

They now do £28k tax free bursaries for the worst shortage subjects and lesser amounts for the other subjects.

The only subjects now which aren't shortage subjects are PE, History and Classics.

OP posts:
cardibach · 05/10/2024 19:35

Lemonadeand · 05/10/2024 19:33

When I was training, there was a 9k grant. I think some people can’t afford to do PGCEs. They also used to do golden hellos for shortage subjects.

They still do. See the infographic further up the thread. It’s not working anymore.

tarheelbaby · 05/10/2024 19:37

Tarantella6 · 05/10/2024 16:16

My dc are constantly complaining about disruptive behaviour, 90% boys. It must be soul destroying to try and teach 25 kids while 5 are pulling in the opposite direction.

Way more support for SEN needed and more power to get the disruptive kids out of the classroom.

It's hard when 5% are not helping but that is reality as a teacher, even in the smaller classes at the 'best' schools. The expectation is that you, as a teacher, can magically engage them. Many teachers can. It's not always easy. This is where teaching earns its pay.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

General education
CreateUserNames · 05/10/2024 19:39

LeedsUniPlanning · 05/10/2024 16:36

So everyone? Even those who cannot afford to because they are on their knees/disabled/ill/carers/have fled domestic abuse?

And if you say"no,of course not" what income level is enough?

Show quote history

Yes I meant everyone! People with needs would have already been allocated living wages by government and shall be expected to budget in.

FrippEnos · 05/10/2024 19:42

cardibach · 05/10/2024 19:35

They still do. See the infographic further up the thread. It’s not working anymore.

Show quote history

Just top add to this.
A uni friend of mine from their experience has said that a lot of people do the course and take the bursary with no intention of ever teaching.

privatenonamegiven · 05/10/2024 19:43

From my experience teaching is NOT family friendly..... if you have children being a teacher sucks.

You take time out to have children and then you can struggle to get back in (I did but had to take significantly less money for a while) and getting a part time job in teaching is very difficult. Schools are getting better but it has felt they are reluctant to have part time staff for whatever reason.

Combattingthemoaners · 05/10/2024 19:45

cardibach · 05/10/2024 19:28

So the Teachers who have taught them at other points, or in other intersecting subjects don’t count? Things that have improved/worsened for them outside school?
’It’s all there is’? Bollocks. It’s a nonsense.

Edited
Show quote history

It can’t be used to assess a teacher holistically, granted. However, if students (a pattern or trend) are getting 6s or 7s in your subject and 4s in every other subject then that data is still telling you something about that teachers worth. There are obviously lots of variables and that’s why performance related pay is stupid but I don’t think you can say it’s bollocks.

Goldenphoenix · 05/10/2024 19:45

Relax the penalties so schools can expel really troublesome students. Schools are effectively fined for this at the moment so you can't get bad kids out. If schools could expel repeat offenders the other kids would soon fall into line or suffer the consequences.

Farting · 05/10/2024 19:47

noblegiraffe · 05/10/2024 15:11

This was one of Labour's main headline pledges. They were a bit vague on the details - is this 6500 more than the amount of teachers that are currently needed, or 6500 more than the Tories managed to recruit, which was well below the amount currently needed? I don't know.

Anyway, where are we at?
Teachers were awarded a 5.5% pay rise as recommended - good.
Ofsted single word judgements scrapped immediately - good.
PPA can now be taken from home - meh, maybe good for primary
Performance related pay scrapped -good

The situation:
Teacher trainee recruitment targets were massively missed again for this September so schools will continue to have unfilled vacancies next September.

The projected fall in pupil numbers due to decreasing birth rates won't be as big as expected so more primary teachers will be needed (and this will impact school funding as fewer pupils meant there was going to be potentially spare cash in the system).

Potentially more pupils in the state system from private could be balanced out by returning private teachers to state schools. That will take some time to shake out.

PGCE mentors are now expected to do 20 hours of training this year to be a mentor, and lead mentors 30 hours, regardless of how experienced they are. This is putting people off being mentors so PGCE providers are struggling to find placements for what few trainees they have.

Workload for teachers is increasing due to lack of funding, and lack of teachers, so they have less time to devote to training teachers. The lack of experienced teachers available to train them is also a problem. At the same time, the demands of training new teachers on schools has increased (e.g. the NQT year is now two years of support and reduced timetable and schools also need to provide PGCE students with 4 extra weeks of intensive training and practice).

This is an extremely urgent issue, and a key government pledge, so why all the airtime about anything to do with education is being taken up with bloody VAT is beyond me.

The impact of the lack of teachers in the system is huge. Inability to recruit teachers means kids have supply and cover teachers which affects their learning, but also their behaviour across the school as they become disaffected in those subjects. Experienced teachers are not only having to plan lessons for the supply teachers and sometimes mark for them too, they are having to pick up the pieces and fill in the gaps when they teach the classes the next year. Heads of Department are spending huge amounts of time fielding legitimate complaints about the quality of teaching. Advertising for positions that cannot be filled is expensive.

What do Labour need to do to turn this around?

Probably no extra ones, and some have probably given it up.

it was always a bullshit promise.

FrippEnos · 05/10/2024 19:49

Combattingthemoaners · 05/10/2024 19:45

It can’t be used to assess a teacher holistically, granted. However, if students (a pattern or trend) are getting 6s or 7s in your subject and 4s in every other subject then that data is still telling you something about that teachers worth. There are obviously lots of variables and that’s why performance related pay is stupid but I don’t think you can say it’s bollocks.

Show quote history

You are assuming that the class make up is exactly the same and that the fft data is remotely credible when applied to the subject.

Sherrystrull · 05/10/2024 19:50

For those saying classes of 25ish. The average class size in my primary school is 33. Some classes are 36.

As a very experienced teacher I take the lower sets and the children that would most benefit from the knowledge I bring to the role. My results are crap in comparison with some other teachers. Lower sets are often much harder to teach and engage too.

Combattingthemoaners · 05/10/2024 19:54

FrippEnos · 05/10/2024 19:49

You are assuming that the class make up is exactly the same and that the fft data is remotely credible when applied to the subject.

Show quote history

I’m not assuming anything as I said there are lots of variables.

cardibach · 05/10/2024 19:57

tarheelbaby · 05/10/2024 19:37

It's hard when 5% are not helping but that is reality as a teacher, even in the smaller classes at the 'best' schools. The expectation is that you, as a teacher, can magically engage them. Many teachers can. It's not always easy. This is where teaching earns its pay.

Show quote history

I agree part of the alchemy of teaching is engaging the unwilling/driving on despite them. 5% though? If only…
The children are not the reason most teachers leave.

newmummycwharf1 · 05/10/2024 19:57

Soontobe60 · 05/10/2024 16:51

When do you expect teachers to mark homework? In a regular school day, I might be expected to mark 30 sets of English, Guided reading and maths, plus either topic, RE or science. That’s 4 different subjects every day - 120 books. Add homework into the mix thats a further 30 books.

Show quote history

Are you suggesting homework should not be marked?

cardibach · 05/10/2024 19:58

Combattingthemoaners · 05/10/2024 19:45

It can’t be used to assess a teacher holistically, granted. However, if students (a pattern or trend) are getting 6s or 7s in your subject and 4s in every other subject then that data is still telling you something about that teachers worth. There are obviously lots of variables and that’s why performance related pay is stupid but I don’t think you can say it’s bollocks.

Show quote history

Stupid but not bollocks?
Could be a language issue.

cardibach · 05/10/2024 19:59

newmummycwharf1 · 05/10/2024 19:57

Are you suggesting homework should not be marked?

Show quote history

I’d suggest it not be set at all. The only t8me it’s valuable is in prep for exams - personal revision.

RaraRachael · 05/10/2024 20:00

One of the Scottish Government's great promises that infant classes would be no more than 18 if I remember correctly.

Or course that has gone by the wayside. In my last P2 class we had 29 children of whom around 10 had SEN of various kinds. Then just as we were getting them settled we got 2 Romanian children who had not a word of English. Theyt were quite disruptive as they couldn't engage in anything. We had an EAL teacher 2 hours per week for the entire school of 360 pupils.

It stuff like this that people who aren't involved in schools haven't a clue about. All they see are long holidays.

Combattingthemoaners · 05/10/2024 20:00

cardibach · 05/10/2024 19:59

I’d suggest it not be set at all. The only t8me it’s valuable is in prep for exams - personal revision.

Show quote history

This is not bollocks or stupid 😂

Werecat · 05/10/2024 20:07

noblegiraffe · 05/10/2024 16:26

So you want to increase tax and use some of that to increase funding for state schools.

OK. I think Labour ruled it out though,

Show quote history

I think they need to un-rule it out.

Then bring in a specific tax with ringfenced purpose. They need to set out what a successful school looks like (with metrics about cover teachers, class sizes, send support available, extracurriculars etc, and the tax is to go specifically to making that happen.

FrippEnos · 05/10/2024 20:07

cardibach · 05/10/2024 19:59

I’d suggest it not be set at all. The only t8me it’s valuable is in prep for exams - personal revision.

Show quote history

Unless you teach a subject which requires NEA

SomersetBrie · 05/10/2024 20:08

caringcarer · 05/10/2024 19:26

But it's all there is. If a pupil is predicted a 4 and they get a 6 in your subject but 4's in most other subjects i think you can claim some credit in either motivating them to perform or preparing them well for exams.

Show quote history

At the high performing state school near me, loads of kids have tutors. You'd have to factor that out of the equation as well if you wanted to judge the teachers based on the kids' performance.

Sherrystrull · 05/10/2024 20:13

Children can mark their own homework in a lesson.

I give homework an acknowledgment stamp and that's it. How do I know if they did it themselves of got their granny to do it?

privatenonamegiven · 05/10/2024 20:17

Sherrystrull · 05/10/2024 20:13

Children can mark their own homework in a lesson.

I give homework an acknowledgment stamp and that's it. How do I know if they did it themselves of got their granny to do it?

I appreciate you wanting to reduce your workload but seriously most teachers can tell when granny did the homework...from the child's point of view it can feel pointless if homework isn't occasionally marked properly.

CreateUserNames · 05/10/2024 20:20

cardibach · 05/10/2024 18:42

I appreciate the genuine interest. It’s the only way we might get somewhere…
It’s hard to explain.

Different children (people) need different things to engage them. The start of the lesson needs to do that - for a range of different interest triggers. Then they have different base knowledge, so the starting point needs to be different. For this, you possibly could have a top/middle/less able template, but it might still need tinkering with for a class).

The ability to work independently varies enormously, so when you get to the individual task you need a range of support which will vary from class to class.

Different teachers have different styles. They don’t do well trying to ‘act’ someone else's style. Teaching is more an art than a science. This bit is pretty tough to explain - but maybe think about your friendship group. If they needed to explain to you an issue in their private lives, would they all do it the same way? That’s separate from your needs as a friend to understand.

I’ve taught English through the medium of tractors in a rural area with farmers’ children. Filter it all through something they are interested in. And then factor in my style, which is chatty/humour/anecdote with a base layer of don’t you fuck with me because neither of us will enjoy that.

Show quote history

well planned streaming would be much better for everyone.

Sherrystrull · 05/10/2024 20:21

When did I say I wasn't marking homework? I understand that it's important in encouraging children to complete it.

However it is very unclear what support the child had. Did they complete it independently? Did someone tell them the right answers? Did someone dictate a sentence or write it for them to copy? Homework is rarely representative of class work. It's usually much better or much worse. Therefore it's meaningless to me in terms of work completed.