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6500 extra teachers....

479 replies

noblegiraffe · 05/10/2024 15:11

This was one of Labour's main headline pledges. They were a bit vague on the details - is this 6500 more than the amount of teachers that are currently needed, or 6500 more than the Tories managed to recruit, which was well below the amount currently needed? I don't know.

Anyway, where are we at?
Teachers were awarded a 5.5% pay rise as recommended - good.
Ofsted single word judgements scrapped immediately - good.
PPA can now be taken from home - meh, maybe good for primary
Performance related pay scrapped -good

The situation:
Teacher trainee recruitment targets were massively missed again for this September so schools will continue to have unfilled vacancies next September.

The projected fall in pupil numbers due to decreasing birth rates won't be as big as expected so more primary teachers will be needed (and this will impact school funding as fewer pupils meant there was going to be potentially spare cash in the system).

Potentially more pupils in the state system from private could be balanced out by returning private teachers to state schools. That will take some time to shake out.

PGCE mentors are now expected to do 20 hours of training this year to be a mentor, and lead mentors 30 hours, regardless of how experienced they are. This is putting people off being mentors so PGCE providers are struggling to find placements for what few trainees they have.

Workload for teachers is increasing due to lack of funding, and lack of teachers, so they have less time to devote to training teachers. The lack of experienced teachers available to train them is also a problem. At the same time, the demands of training new teachers on schools has increased (e.g. the NQT year is now two years of support and reduced timetable and schools also need to provide PGCE students with 4 extra weeks of intensive training and practice).

This is an extremely urgent issue, and a key government pledge, so why all the airtime about anything to do with education is being taken up with bloody VAT is beyond me.

The impact of the lack of teachers in the system is huge. Inability to recruit teachers means kids have supply and cover teachers which affects their learning, but also their behaviour across the school as they become disaffected in those subjects. Experienced teachers are not only having to plan lessons for the supply teachers and sometimes mark for them too, they are having to pick up the pieces and fill in the gaps when they teach the classes the next year. Heads of Department are spending huge amounts of time fielding legitimate complaints about the quality of teaching. Advertising for positions that cannot be filled is expensive.

What do Labour need to do to turn this around?

6500 extra teachers....
6500 extra teachers....
OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
angstridden2 · 09/10/2024 15:43

….should have said trained and in a State school.

RaraRachael · 09/10/2024 16:52

It must be great to be one of these people who always thinks they're right - even when they're not 😂

Boomer55 · 09/10/2024 16:56

Well, it obviously won’t happen. I can’t imagine why people thought it would.🤷‍♀️

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

LaurenOrda · 09/10/2024 17:00

noblegiraffe · 09/10/2024 15:34

If you’re lucky you’ll get me training you.

How many sessions on inadequate ventilation? Or complaining on the internet?
What about 'it's my way or the highway'?

Can't wait to get started! 😁

LaurenOrda · 09/10/2024 17:04

angstridden2 · 09/10/2024 15:25

Go for it LaurenOrda, I’m sure you’ll tell SLT a thing or two and be an inspiration to your colleagues. Having worked 100 hour weeks you’ll breeze through a teaching week. Look forward to your updates when you’re trained and a classroom teacher.

It's not for the next 5-9 years depending on kids plans but fully intend to do it. I'd quite like one of those job swap things they do on tv series but without the camera crew.

Come and do corporate deals for 6 months and I'll do teaching - (I might choose 1 July as the start date 😉)

LaurenOrda · 09/10/2024 17:10

@cardibach "Where did I use the word ‘afraid’?
I think your expectations of both the job and the pension are unrealistic."

You didn't. That's why I didn't use " ". You implied that teaching leadership might have corporate psychopath elements with the implication it was something to fear. And if you're honestly saying you did not imply that, what did you mean?

£50bn on state sector pensions last year. We never did see it as a % of tax take. How much is currently spent on state education?

LeedsUniPlanning · 09/10/2024 17:32

OK. So the average state sector salary is £30k. The average private sector salary is £35k.

So if you remove the pension you'd need to make the lower salaries more competitive (this is why public sector salaries are lower...the pension is the sweetner).

So say £5 k per employee. So 5K by 5.94 million.....oh...that is £30 billion pounds.

Oh and of course you would need to add to that...extra tax payments.... another couple of billion. And of course you'd still need to add an employer pension contribution.....so maybe another £12-15 billion

So yes. Cheaper. But not actually by much. But the conditions/work load/other benefits are not as good as the private sector (no shiny gym and private health care in your local school/hospital). So you'd maybe find yourself having to up that base salary to remain competitive. So maybe that 5K isn't enough. So you end up constantly recruiting...which costs money...

noblegiraffe · 09/10/2024 17:47

LaurenOrda · 09/10/2024 17:00

How many sessions on inadequate ventilation? Or complaining on the internet?
What about 'it's my way or the highway'?

Can't wait to get started! 😁

Like I said, you'd be lucky to have me train you.

My trainees actually make it into teaching where quite a few others drop out. Some of my trainees actually enjoy their placement so much they get a job at my school. Perhaps we'd become colleagues.

OP posts:
RaraRachael · 09/10/2024 17:51

A fact not known by non teachers - you don't just wave goodbye to your class on the last day of the summer term and rock up again in September having spent 6 weeks totally relaxing doing nothing. If you're lucky there will be 2 weeks when you don't have something school related to do.
However some people would be such marvellous teachers that they could swan off for the entire duration having nothing to do - teaching is SO easy after all.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 09/10/2024 18:00

A fact not known by non teachers - you don't just wave goodbye to your class on the last day of the summer term and rock up again in September having spent 6 weeks totally relaxing doing nothing

Indeed. You also don't get to decide to

'choose July as the start date'

That's not really how it works.

Your plans sound great btw, @laurenOrda - if your aim is to make sure even more classes won't have a qualified teacher in the future.

Maddy70 · 09/10/2024 18:07

PepperSauce · 05/10/2024 16:05

Why is performance related pay bad?

Because children are variables. One of my examples...Kid expected to get grade 4 in exam dad develops terminal cancer ðuring school year. Kid at hospital every night . Poor attendance in final stages. Does exams but understandably underperforms. Teacher doesnt get pay rise

(Teacher has been providing above and beyond support to kid btw but that isnt measured!)

Sherrystrull · 09/10/2024 18:19

LaurenOrda · 09/10/2024 15:08

I'm busy earning enough for my kids to go to private school at the moment. But I fully intend to jump on the 13 week holiday defined benefit pension scheme once they're off our hands.

I've worked 100 hour weeks, managed multi national multi billion pound deals, done many many all nighters, cancelled holidays and been beholden to several corporate psychopaths in my time. Teaching a subject or two to kids - I'll manage that.

You do realise you're coming across as an absolute idiot?

Combattingthemoaners · 09/10/2024 18:24

LaurenOrda · 09/10/2024 15:08

I'm busy earning enough for my kids to go to private school at the moment. But I fully intend to jump on the 13 week holiday defined benefit pension scheme once they're off our hands.

I've worked 100 hour weeks, managed multi national multi billion pound deals, done many many all nighters, cancelled holidays and been beholden to several corporate psychopaths in my time. Teaching a subject or two to kids - I'll manage that.

LOL.

StiffyByngsDogBartholomew · 09/10/2024 18:37

LaurenOrda · 09/10/2024 15:08

I'm busy earning enough for my kids to go to private school at the moment. But I fully intend to jump on the 13 week holiday defined benefit pension scheme once they're off our hands.

I've worked 100 hour weeks, managed multi national multi billion pound deals, done many many all nighters, cancelled holidays and been beholden to several corporate psychopaths in my time. Teaching a subject or two to kids - I'll manage that.

Posts like this, sounding like absolute idiots, are the reason why the general populace think that all private school parents and children are total arseholes and give the rest of us a bad name. Your post is just so rude and dismissive I don't even know where to begin. I hope the other people on the thread realise we aren't all twats. Or at least I try not to be.

You do realise that all of society benefits from a well educated population and consequently good teachers with good benefits and pay need to be recruited to provide that ? Or wasn't that something you learnt in all your 100 hour weeks ?

frankly as you're so busy and important I'm surprised you have time to post on MN. Although anyone can say they are anybody on here. You could equally easily be a minimum wage worker working 12 hours a week shelf stacking in Morrisons (not that there is anything wrong with that) and making everything up.

MrsHamlet · 09/10/2024 20:22

noblegiraffe · 09/10/2024 15:34

If you’re lucky you’ll get me training you.

Or me :)

Papyrophile · 09/10/2024 20:29

After the last (quite bad tempered) exchange of views, maybe it's time to probe the views and attitudes of the public sector (who believe they are working for everyone, on inadequate wages and equitable pensions) versus those working in the private sector who make the profits to pay the tax to fund the public sector, and who earn more now but won't receive index-linked pensions in retirement.

Secondary education needs to be better at engaging the non-academic or at putting them en route for useful work. Disrupter A is unlikely to "get" the subtleties of Shakespeare or delight in the elegance of quantum physics; they might be excellent shown how to do something more practical at 12 and 13 and 14 and be quite useful by 15/16, with adult guidance.

OP posts:
LaurenOrda · 09/10/2024 21:07

@StiffyByngsDogBartholomew

I've been attending a medical appointment today so had lots more time than usual on Mumsnet. It's been the perfect distraction actually.

And I think the accusation of rudeness could equally be directed at you for the content of your post to me.

FWIW I'm the product of a shit state school. I'm a straight A student (the only girl that year to get an A in GCSE maths in fact). The school celebrated the mediocre, advocated for striving for a C grade, rewarded an absence of bad behaviour, called bullying character building. It's the state schooling that turned me into the person I am. Sending my kids to private school and striving for better so they don't have to put up with the shit I did or be the people I went to school with. I've got plenty of an idea of what state school is like - and the teachers doing stuff for an easy life - because I lived it for 7 years.

LaurenOrda · 09/10/2024 21:09

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 09/10/2024 18:00

A fact not known by non teachers - you don't just wave goodbye to your class on the last day of the summer term and rock up again in September having spent 6 weeks totally relaxing doing nothing

Indeed. You also don't get to decide to

'choose July as the start date'

That's not really how it works.

Your plans sound great btw, @laurenOrda - if your aim is to make sure even more classes won't have a qualified teacher in the future.

LOL - that was in relation to my suggestion about a 6 month job swap. We could start the swap on 1 July!

LaurenOrda · 09/10/2024 21:13

@Sherrystrull "You do realise you're coming across as an absolute idiot?"

Should I be concerned if other people on the internet think I'm an idiot? I appear to not be the slightest bit concerned about it. 🤷🏼‍♀️

I find the whole 'you can't possibly understand unless you're a teacher' thing nonsense.

Sherrystrull · 09/10/2024 21:16

LaurenOrda · 09/10/2024 21:13

@Sherrystrull "You do realise you're coming across as an absolute idiot?"

Should I be concerned if other people on the internet think I'm an idiot? I appear to not be the slightest bit concerned about it. 🤷🏼‍♀️

I find the whole 'you can't possibly understand unless you're a teacher' thing nonsense.

Keep talking rubbish then. You're doing yourself no favours. Any points you think you're making are lost behind your petty personal comments.

It's pretty common to not know what jobs are like until you've done them.

DrMadelineMaxwell · 09/10/2024 22:21

Superhansrantowindsor · 07/10/2024 21:04

Teachers in the mid 90’s needed a degree. Not 2 E’s at A-level

That was the entry requirement for the course when I applied in 92. I applied with higher grades than that, but some on my course were taken on with them.

DoggoQuestions · 09/10/2024 22:27

LaurenOrda · 09/10/2024 15:15

Completely agree you should be able to expel the troublemakers.

I had a shit time in state school so I'm paying to ensure my kids don't go to school with people like that.

The expired kids need separate (not on site) support units with behavioral therapy and reasonable achievement targets rather than comprehensive do all classes sit all exams.

It could be paid for out of funds from restructured civil service pensions!

What if the 'troublemaker' is acting out because his mum died unexpectedly and he's now living with dad who he only used to see EOW. Primary age.

Should he be expelled?

Or should schools actually be funded well enough to be able to support the poor child without compromising the education of the other 29 in the class?

LaurenOrda · 09/10/2024 22:42

Well that's a strange and very specific example but I've been arguing in favour of more state school funding for the whole thread. Of course those specific circumstances require different support. 🙄

LaurenOrda · 09/10/2024 22:44

@Sherrystrull my petty personal comments? 😂 I suggest you read your own posts back.

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