Horrendous bedtime with 5 year old

[boscobear]

DD has recently turned 5, bedtime has always been a bit of a nightmare no matter what we've done, what time we've put her to bed, routine etc but it seems to be going from bad to worse and I dread it every night.
Our routine at the moment is tv off at dinner for the night, after dinner she'll do something like colouring, Lego, reading etc until bath time then a story and bed at 7.30 ish. She wakes at 7 every morning. Everything is fine up until she gets out of the bath then everything becomes a fight, she won't get dressed, won't get dried, doesn't want her hair dried etc, she then starts running around, laughing, screaming, jumping on the bed, hitting, grabbing me or her little sister, just generally doing anything she thinks is naughty.
I usually end up putting her in her bedroom and telling her to let me know when she's dressed and I'll come read her a story before bed but lately she's just started trashing her bedroom or screaming as loud as she can as soon as I do that.
If I sit in there with her she starts lashing out at me, If DH takes over then she will scream and shout for me and I'm honestly surprised we've never had a knock on the door I've never heard a child scream so loud.
I would let her just scream it out but it is now affecting my 1yo who is being woken/kept awake by her every night which isn't fair.
She also will not be left to go to bed herself, if we try then the screaming and trashing the place starts all over again.
We've tried doing bath in the morning instead, this step doesn't seem to matter because then she just starts once she's told it's time for pjs. We've tried later bedtime incase she isn't tired enough but then she struggles in the morning to get up for school and then it has a knock on effect for bedtime that night because she's exhausted. I thought maybe she's just not getting enough 1-1 time with us so we tried having 30-40 mins a night with one of us doing whatever she wanted while the other does DD1's bedtime but as soon as we get upstairs after it she starts.
I am drained and at a complete loss as to where to go from here, does anyone have any advice? Thankyou

What's she like the rest of the time? This behaviour is quite extreme, is her behaviour generally typical or is this part of a wider issue?

What does she say when you ask her about it?

Is this untypical behaviour for her otherwise? Is she scared of going to bed on her own? I used to be and I would use delaying tactics as far as possible, although nothing like this as I would've got a clout from my mum (60's child).

Thanks for the replies! @NuffSaidSam @ginasevern
Her behaviour the rest of the time is generally typical 5yo behaviour, we do get the odd tantrum during the day if she's asked to do something she doesn't want to or is told no for example but nothing out of the ordinary for her age I don't think.
School wise she's the perfect child and was the same in nursery so they don't see this side at all and seemed really surprised when I spoke to them about it.
When she is calm and I ask her about it she says she doesn't know why and can't explain how she was feeling, other times though she is generally very good at this.
As for being scared of going to bed she has mentioned a few times about being scared of the dark. we have tried everything we could possibly think of to help this, she has night lights and I leave the hall light on, a bed tent to make it nice and cosy, favourite teddies to sleep with, still has her monitor on so she knows I can see her, listens to an audio book when going to sleep so it isn't super quiet. We also sit or lay with her every night so she isn't alone but it still doesn't stop the craziness before we eventually get to that point.

Put her to bed earlier.

Gonna go completely against the poster above and say 11.5 hours of sleep (which is what you are aiming for with 7:30pm-7am) is quite a lot for a 5 year old. Neither DC1 nor many of his friends sleep that much at night time. Most of them average more like 10.5ish, maybe 11 hours tops. What time is she actually falling asleep at night?

Can you enlighten us more on ‘Her behaviour the rest of the time is generally typical 5yo’. What does this mean? Is she generally defiant or is bedtime a complete anomaly and she otherwise a very compliant child?

Is bedtime a rush in the evenings? It’s really hard with a baby as well, especially if you and your DH are working, but does she have the opportunity for loads of post school connection time with you?

@Vettrianofan yes I could try this, it would be tight fitting everything in in an evening though but is worth a shot I suppose

I find that when they do this type of wild behaviour it is purely due to over tiredness.

Anything is worth a shot OP. It might work, it might not.

I found that if I put mine to bed later then they just woke up at the usual insane early time. I'd rather have some peace in the evening.

I have four DC and they all need plenty sleep.

I would make sure you have her PJs with you in the bathroom so that when she gets out of the bath, it’s a quick dry then PJs on. If you have to, lock the door with you both inside! Alternatively, give her a bath straight after dinner then she gets to play downstairs once she’s ready. My DDs used to be like this at bedtime.

@VivaVivaa I'd say she's probably falling asleep around 8/8.15 most nights unless we have a particularly difficult night. I do feel as though she needs that sleep though as she is extra tired the next day if she hasn't.
She's mostly compliant otherwise, it does depend on her mood (like most 5 year olds?) but she will usually do as I ask. She will have the odd tantrum over things during the day but this isn't a daily thing and is nothing like what we get at bedtime. I'm currently at home so she has me from when she finishes school until bedtime, obviously in between making dinner and sorting DD1, but we do spend some time together reading or watching a movie, doing Lego etc in between that time and she gets maybe an hour with DH once he's home from work. I don't think bedtime is rushed but maybe I could look at starting the routine a little earlier to give her that extra bit of time so she isn't feeling rushed at all.

What do you actually do about it? Is there any kind of consequence for this? Because tbh if any of mine had dicked around like that I'd have rapidly lost patience and issued a bollocking followed by bed with no story and no lying next to them, no matter how much they screamed. It sounds an awful lot like she knows she can scream and throw stuff and hit you all with absolutely zero consequence.

@Soontobe60 Thankyou I will try this tomorrow

@LeopardPrintIsANeutraI I've lost count of the amount of times I've lost patience, I'm at the end of my tether with it. We've tried a lot and to be honest no form of consequence seems to work or bother her in the slightest. We've tried bed with no story, nobody laying with her, she just screams, punches the walls, doors, rips everything off the bed. Which is fine, I'd happily close the door and let her get on with it the screaming doesn't bother me, but it is bothering my 1yo who is being disturbed with it nightly so I can't just let her scream. So yes she probably does know she can scream and get away with it but what else do I do? We've removed toys, screen time, days out have been cancelled, it doesn't bother her remotely.

There could be a couple of things. Did it change after the summer holidays? Maybe the new school routine is causing distress she can't articulate. Friendship worries after a re-shuffle?

There could be nightmares or feeling of being left alone she masks during the day.

DD was a bit older but we had some sucess with a worry doll who would take away the worries overnight. It was next to her pillow and she did whisper her thought to her. We collected it when we went to bed and at breakfast the doll would be there, ready for the next night.

Other things which worked were meditation CDs. She may be a bit young though.

DD had 10 hours sleep and we found this enough but she was used from babyhood to eat with us after nursery and be in bed at 8pm, ready for a wake up around 6.30am.

I'd go the opposite way and make bedtime much shorter.

I'd do bath and PJ's as soon as she gets in from school (quite nice as the evening's draw in and it's dark at 4pm!), then she can watch TV, have her dinner, play with Daddy, have her stories etc and I'd take her up at 8pm, straight into bed, quick kiss good night and leave (sit in the doorway/outside if needed). Remove any opportunity for the bad behaviour.

If she isn't falling asleep until 8:15pm, then 7:30pm is too early for lights out.

Rather than bath, then staying upstairs getting ready for bed, have you tried doing an earlier bath, then putting her pyjamas on and letting her come downstairs for a story & a drink? Doing it that way round gives her the incentive to let you get her and her hair dried, because the reward is coming back downstairs again. Routines are good, but maybe switching the order around a bit might help.

So bedtime is at 7:30 and she is usually asleep by 8 or 8:15? This behaviour can’t be going on all that long then if there is only a delay of 30 to 45 minutes between desired sleep time and actual sleep time? I still maintain sleeping 8pm until 7am is completely normal for a 5 year old.

Bedtime is difficult for lots of kids because it’s a massive transition - probably the biggest transition of the whole day. They are tired, they have held their sh*t together all day at school and they have missed you. It’s hard to process all of that as a 5 year old. Lots of them just need to release energy. Maybe just embracing it and having a ‘silly half an hour’ before bed - loads of movement and noise and dancing, might work?

I'd also try and find an alternative solution for the baby (put to sleep downstairs and transfer over later for example), just for the time being, so you can push through any screaming without waking the baby.

You could try "you can stay up later than the baby if you go to bed quietly. We can't put baby to sleep first if you scream at bedtime".

Cancelling days out and screen time won't help, it's too far removed.

Have you tried using a timer (that she can see) and explaining that if she is quiet and stays in bed for 1 minute, you'll go in and sit with her and read another story etc. Then once 1 minute is fine, 2 minutes, then 5, then 10, then 15 etc.

Does she have to have a bath every night? We don’t as I don’t know if it’s needed really?

This is a good idea. I would hate to get straight into bed after a hot bath/shower. But of transition time is good.

When did this bad behavior start OP? Did it coincide with anything else going on?

Thankyou everyone, a lot of good advice and food for thought.
This started a while ago, probably around when she turned 3, but has definitely ramped up since starting school.
I think we definitely need to look at a big switching up of routine and go from there.

We've tried bed with no story, nobody laying with her, she just screams, punches the walls, doors, rips everything off the bed

We've removed toys, screen time, days out have been cancelled, it doesn't bother her remotely

Kids do well when they can. It’s very rare to have a kid who gets a kick out of being violent and destructive. This all screams a child who needs more connection, not less. I’m not saying that’s easy. But coming down heavy with punishment after punishment is completely ineffective, as the underlying assumption with that model is that this behaviour is a ‘choice’.

DC1 is also a model student at school, but is naturally quite highly strung and intense. He also has a 1 yo sibling, which he has found pretty tough. The upshot is he needs a lot of parental attention, alongside the opportunity to be really physical and to make lots of noise after school. We often take him somewhere to just run and shout straight after school, followed by a bit of quiet, uninterrupted play with DH or I, before some more physical time after tea (a little indoor trampoline has been a great investment). It’s not a classic bedtime routine for sure, but if his needs are met that way, bedtime is generally smooth. Before we figured this all out, it was often hell.

@VivaVivaa Thankyou that is really helpful advice

Another vote for trying a shorter bedtime routine ,and also I'm not convinced a bath every night before bed is the right thing for every child. Certainly with mine, bath time seems to have the opposite effect to relaxing him, he seems to wake up more! We now do baths earlier, after his bath he he gets time to play and have supper. He is 5 and he gets into bed at 8pm, we read 2 books and then it's lights out , cuddles and we say goodnight and leave the room. He's normally asleep by 8.20/30ish and wakes around 6.45/7am.

I recently read about the benefits of epsom salts in the bath to calm kids before bed. Didn't work for my toddler (the difficult one) but my 5 year old claimed the bath felt very relaxing 😂

Could you introduce something else into the routine like a yoto to listen to in bed?