Do I need to lower my expectations of the school with SEN child?

[Doyounow]

DS turned 4 last month and whilst he has no diagnosis, I’m coming to terms with the fact he likely has ASD. He isn’t what I would call non-verbal in the sense he does have a fairly wide vocabulary but he is selective in when he uses it. Everything is very much on his terms so if he wants to answer your question or tell you what something is when you ask, he will but if he isn’t motivated to or interested in it then forget it. He can label lots of items, say the alphabet, count to 20, finish off words to songs, read a few words in books but his communicative language isn’t quite there. He won’t tell me how his day has been or what he has done at school so I rely on the staff to inform me of this.

We are under the NHS SALT team and have been for a year but haven’t seen much progress so are looking into private help. They gave us communication boards which he used for a few weeks but lost interest and now refuses to acknowledge them. The SLT we have seen believes his communication skills are excellent but that he has realised he can communicate very effectively without language so doesn’t feel motivated to use it. He is very independent so his first port of call will be to do something himself and if he gets stuck, he will lead us by the hand and point to whatever he is stuck with or pass us the object.

Other than speech delay, we have very few issues. He has actually never had a tantrum which thinking about it may be odd but he is a calm and quiet boy, doesn’t kick up a fuss. He enjoys reading books, playing on the Nintendo switch with his older brother, playing on the trampoline and on his scooter and playing with Lego. All usual stuff.

He started reception this week. He was in a private nursery 3 full days (8-6) whilst I was at work prior to this so not like he has jumped from being at home to school, he has experience of an educational setting. I don’t know if I am expecting too much here so looking for advice.

Due to DS not being able to tell me what he has done or how his day was, I have asked the teacher or TAs each day but they haven’t been able to tell me much. They all just sort of say ‘if there was a problem, it would be written down at the main door so they’d tell you as you were passing by’ and that they’re floating around all day so haven’t spent much time with DS specifically… So I have absolutely no idea what he’s doing all day.

I also don’t know whether he has eaten his lunch. He is a fussy eater so I was given the school menu and I highlighted the meals I thought he would eat each day so they knew. I don’t know how much he has eaten but do know that when he returns home, he is ravenous and eats essentially a full meal so I gather he isn’t eating much. I need to know if he is eating any school dinner because if not, I will provide a packed lunch.

On top of this, I have been handed a ‘care plan’ this morning which I didn’t look at until I got home. When they said care plan, I thought it would be how they were helping him with his speech or development because I had this at his previous nursery. I was rather shocked and taken aback to read that it’s all to do with toileting which just makes no sense to me. They say he needs wipes and spare clothes and it goes into details about how his main goal is to sit on the toilet until his soiled clothes have been changed. He hasn’t had an accident all week and indeed, hasn’t had an accident since he started toilet training over a year ago now. He would rather hold his pee in all day than pee himself, he honestly has no issue with going to the toilet whatsoever so I have absolutely no idea why I have been handed this.

I will be speaking to them today at pick up but I’m starting to get concerned that they are lumping him in a SEN shaped box and because he likely has SEN, they have handed me that form today because they just naturally expect any child with SEN soils themselves? I don’t know, I just thought it was odd because if he has been shown where the toilet is, he will just take himself when he needs to go and certainly doesn’t have accidents.

Am I expecting too much from them or being difficult? This is all new to me because DC1 is completely NT and I never had a problem with the reception staff when he was in reception last year as a result.

You could ask for a meeting with the class teacher and the SENCo and explain your concerns and they can explain what they see in school. Then you should be able to formulate a support plan, based on what you know and what you feel will help him in school.

I think many reception children don’t necessarily talk much about their day. According to mine years ago, it would sound as though they did nothing all day. The lunch issue does need addressing though, because you need to know whether he’s eating enough to keep his energy levels up and you’ve said you’re happy to provide a packed lunch if school dinners are not to his taste.

It sounds as though the care plan was a mistake. I doubt they think all with SEN soil themselves. I would also ask for a meeting with teacher and senco to clarify a few things.

Honestly though, it does sound like you're expecting a nursery style handover with regards to each day, which I can't imagine is possible.

I would ask to meet with the teacher or senco to raise your concerns around salt issues and how that might work in school, and the care plan which doesnt fit needs a conversation.

But I do think you need to manage your expectations about daily feedback. The staff ratios in child care are much higher. It might shock you to know how few staff are in the lunch hall for instance. It might only be one, who sees 180 chikdren across an hour. They will check people are eating and may feedback if they ate nothing at all, but they can't say so and so left the peas and ate half the biscuit.

It's the same with class time, you tend to only get told is something is going wrong.

And most chikdren don't say much about their day.

It's a bit of a shock after nursery.

I think your expectations are quite high in terms of daily information BUT I think the toilet document is worrying as he has no toileting issues.

I’d be asking for a quick meeting to check they haven’t got him mixed up with another child and do they actually know what his SEN needs are. You could also mention the food issue then.

I have one child with ASD and one who is NT (as far as I know, anyway). Neither has ever told me anything about their day or remembered what they have for lunch. According to my WhatsApp group for my daughter's class, this is normal.

I'd ask why the care plan mentions his toileting, have they got him confused with another child who has problems? I have termly meetings for my ASD child where his teacher goes through how well he is meeting his targets.

In terms of your son's abilities and behaviour, it sounds like he's doing far better than my son was when he started reception - he certainly couldn't count to twenty or read words then, he didn't know any letters. And he would sometimes roll on the floor screaming and refuse to engage according to his teacher.

You aren't going to get a hand over at pick up. There are often 30 kids at the same time so there is no way the teacher has time to go into detail about their day. Often the teacher won't know abut their lunch as it is covered by other staff. Our primary has 600 pupils - there is no way to keep track of who eats what - if you want to monitor it, I would suggest a paced lunched so you can see what is left.

Most kids don't tell their parents about their day or lunch. I have the opposite and my kid tells me everything and have become the go to for other parents to ask for information about what is going on in class!

I am wondering if they have got him mixed up but she had a few of them in her hands so also wondering whether every parent with a potentially SEN child just got handed the same blanket one? I will obviously be challenging it because it isn’t relevant to him.

Do get the point about updates, I know my older DC tended to ‘forget’ a lot about his day. I don’t expect a full report but it would be nice to know he’s having a good time there and is getting on well.

At lunch he sits in a small group with a member of staff who helps them if they need it so I would have thought they would say if he hadn’t touched the food and that would be relayed to me? I know kids are hungry after school because older DS always is too but he eats essentially a full on meal.

Hello, reception teacher here. Yes, I think you're expecting too much, unless specific arrangements have been made with staff. Generally speaking, we are not in the lunch hall, and the midday supervisors are unable to focus on specific children. We are also unable to tell parents what their child has been up to each day (and reception children never tell their parents!). Activities are usually communicated weekly via tapestry or newsletter. No idea about the care plan - sounds like a mistake, maybe given the wrong child's, or form not saved and updated. However, it sounds as as though your child may need some additional specific arrangements. So my suggestion would be to put your requests in an email to the teacher, and ask for a meeting in the next few weeks. But be realistic. In the past, I have used a communication book to write a sentence about a child's day, but that was for a totally non verbal child. Its surprisingly hard to find the time to do even that. A one to one support would.be the only way to monitor your child's eating in detail which would of course need an ehcp etc., but, if asked, I would try to catch the child a at a couple of lunch times to give you some idea of if any food had been eaten. Basically, tell the staff what you would like, to help, and they will tell you what they are able to do. We would want to help.

Honestly OP I was reading this thinking it was your first child. You seem entirely unrealistic about state primary schools (if it’s private then it’s a different matter - you’re paying for a different level of service).

He was 4 in August. He’s in Reception.

Your child doesn’t sound to me like he has anything than a normal developmental slowness to develop speech, which is entirely normal for a very large number of children. What exactly do you think his SEN is? Being average or slightly below average isn’t a SEN. It just means it will be a harder journey through school. I can say it to you because I don’t know you: it’s possible he’s just not very bright. That’s good news so you can work on his development. Doesn’t mean he needs an EHCP.

Kids this age often regress with certain tasks at school, like using the toilet. Accidents happen. The school will want to make sure he is confident using the loo and that’s what they have asked you to focus on. So focus on it.

Kids this age don’t give you a narrative of their day.

Kids this age often mis-report back to parents, either by omission, spinning out a fantasy or due to generalised confusion. They often mix up “yesterday” with “a week ago”.

Kids this age often don’t know the alphabet very well, often make grammar and pronunciation errors, often have a limited vocabulary. At 4 and 1 month if he is just reading a few words that is very positive.

Kids this age often don’t eat lunch when they are in a new, over stimulating environment. They chat and get distracted and come home and eat a huge dinner. At my school kids get a sticker if they eat all their lunch but 90% of the time they lose the sticker before home time. If you still think he’s eating nothing at lunch every day after half term then approach the school to ask them to keep an eye out,

It sounds like your private nursery were being extremely accommodating and you need to let the school guide you.

Schools don't offer daily feedback and they won't feedback on what he is eating.

Speak to them about the care plan. Ask them if he has regressed in toileting.

I think you are expecting too much of the school. It doesn’t sound like your DS is doing too badly and has not just started reception so it is all new to them all. My dd has just started too and also doesn’t tell me much about her day, I have no idea how much she’s eaten and who she has (or hasn’t) played with. She hasn’t got any SEN, I think that’s just normal of lot of 4 year old when they first start. She gets handed over by her teacher but no proper communication unless there’s been an issue which is what you’d expect in reception when there’s 30 of them in a class.

He can’t have regressed in toileting because he hasn’t returned home in different pants or trousers and I’m fairly certain they would have informed me if he had an accident?

I appreciate they won’t be able to give me a full on run down of his day but I figured they may be able to offer a snippet of what they do day to day- activities they have done or something or just a basic of whether he’s got on ok would be nice. Do understand they have far more children than the nursery and that they won’t be able to provide a full on running commentary though!

As for comment about him not being very bright, bit harsh. I’d say he is quite bright and switched on to be honest, he just needs some support with communicative language. He does likely have SEN because there are a few other markers of ASD but I’m not forcing a diagnosis because I’ve always been happy to let him develop in his own time.

Speak to the teacher about the care plan, it’s not relevant to your DS.

I would set a meeting with the teacher and SENCO. As your DS has S&LT involvement it’s worth applying for an EHCP so the support can be imbedded into his day. My DS didn’t start to make improvements until he had weekly sessions with a therapist and daily support from a TA - he wouldn’t have got this without an EHCP.

But they have 30 kids and one class teacher, they just handover the kids at the end of the day and won’t have time to do a rundown of how he’s got on. Every parent would expect it and then thick up would last 30 mins with some parents waiting that long to pick up. It’s not realistic. The teacher would tell you if there had been an issue that day. Fine, stay behind and talk to the teacher at the end if there’s something proper to discuss but it shouldn’t be an every day occurrence.

Parent of an adult child with ASD and complex needs here.

What does the SALT report say and what do they think. Does the report have percentiles for expressive/ receptive/ semantic and pragmatic language?

Thanks for the advice. I will be having a conversation about the care plan because it’s irrelevant for him and I’ll also ask about whether he needs any further support.

As I say, I don’t expect a full on report of his day by any means but because he can’t or won’t tell me about his day, I rely on them to fill in the gaps. Other children who communicate through language can tell their parents at least snippets of their day or they can say they are happy, had a good day etc but DS doesn’t so I have absolutely no idea.

You will have to use his mood and behaviour at home to judge his happiness at school. DS changed from a happy go lucky child to one who got overwhelmed very quickly after a few weeks at school.

I think what you may not realise is that this can be typical 4 year old behaviour and so lots of parents also won’t get much from their children about their day. You said this in the op Everything is very much on his terms so if he wants to answer your question or tell you what something is when you ask, he will but if he isn’t motivated to or interested in it then forget it
Well that is the same as my dd who has no SEN. If she doesn’t want to speak or tell me something then she doesn’t, no matter who is asking her. If I ask her about her day and she doesn’t want to give me anything she will say no and turn her head, or just not say anything. She even screeched at her class teacher when leaving the other day when she asked her something. She’s the same age as your ds, just turned 4. It’s perfectly normal for us parents not to know about their day at this stage and many parents in your class will be in the same position. I think we need to adjust our expectations when van from nursery to school, we’re not going to get the same level of interaction from the teacher.

SALT report doesn’t go into much detail to be honest. We have been told his communication level is good. The way they described it is to imagine communication as a pyramid, many children at the very bottom unable to communicate needs or wants at all but DS is at the top. It’s actually astonishing how well he can communicate without language to be honest, he either gets things done independently or will make sure we know exactly what he wants/needs so we help him.

They gave us communication boards to use which as I say, he did use for a while but grew tired of them and gave up even acknowledging them. They then asked us to use photos so for example, we hold up a photo of the toilet when he needs the toilet and repeat what it is. Problem is, he’s so independent he often just takes himself to the toilet so don’t always get the chance!

We’re looking into private SALT because this is about as far as NHS help has got. The typical meetings just involve them playing with him and because he gladly plays with all of the toys on offer, interacts with the SLT when she blows bubbles or plays with the popping ball toy thing, she seems pretty satisfied it’s very much a case of wait and see for now. I guess as a parent, I just want to hear what his thoughts are sometimes and would absolutely love to hear about his day so I’m keen for him to talk more so I can have conversations with him as I do with DC1.

He’s also very young for his year - perhaps he is exhausted? And that mig be why he is so hungry?

Regarding lunch - as he is on a table with a teacher to help, I think you would hear if he was persistently eating very little. But a note to the office to check with that dinner teacher might reassure you.

You're not 'forcing' diagnosis? What does that even mean OP? A diagnosis is only going to help you, his teachers and he himself understand him better. As the waiting list can be two years long why wait until there's a problem? A diagnosis won't change him as a person or make him develop any faster or slower.

He sounds a lot like my ds at that age OP(diagnosed at 11 as we had no idea until much later) and his at his first parents evening the teacher said she didn't feel like she knew him at all. He flew under the radar and it's easy for kids like that to get over looked. Maybe it would be worth requesting a meeting with her to talk about it all properly rather than trying to grab her for five minutes after school?

Unless there are major problems don't expect to hear from school though, I had the same with DS. If he's happy to go in in the morning then assume he's happy and try him on a packed lunch and see if he's still ravenous at the end of the day. Wait till you get to secondary school, then you really will feel disconnected and like you have no idea what is going on!

Sorry I only read half your post but school won't give you a detailed account of his day like nursery. They will tell you if there's a problem.
Have you had his hearing tested?
Speech usually comes on leaps and bounds once they get to primary school so give him time.
Avoid asking him questions straight after school as he'll be tired and will need quiet time to relax and process his day.
I usually give mine a snack and a hug at pick up. I say that I hope he's had a good day. We have a quiet walk / drive home then he tends to get more chatty once we're home. I hope that helps

I wonder if you could do a little exercise with him along with his reading book, with different faces and he can point to one which shows how his day went. I’ve seen them online. It could reassure you if he’s happy or unsettled, but as others have said, teacher will inform you of problems.

If you are worried about lunch I’d send him with a lunchbox (unless on FSM), so you can give foods you know he likes and see how much he has eaten.

My DD (4 later this month) has just switched from private nursery to school nursery and I know it’s different to reception but so far I get a detailed handover. But it’s from her 1:1 as she has an EHCP in place. She’s non-verbal and recently diagnosed with ASD so unable to tell me about her day but they let me know how she’s been all day, how she’s eaten, toileting etc and what she’s been up to.

I agree with previous posters regarding getting him started on the ASD assessment pathway, as things/needs can quickly change and waiting lists are long. Especially as the demands of school increase after reception.