Are the new term time holiday laws making you re think holiday plans?

[WindyTums]

Every year, my parents and in laws pay for the whole family to go on a European lodge based holiday. It’s during term time as school holiday costs more than double. DH and I are the only ones who have school aged DC (secondary).

Every year the holiday is arranged for either just before the Easter holidays or just before the October half term. We always go and it’s a great experience for everyone.

This years gathering is just before October half term and I’ve agreed to take the DC out of school for this, accepting we will be fined.
One of our elderly relatives has a milestone birthday next year and it has been agreed to book the next one for just before the Easter holidays. It’s likely this will be elderly relatives last time going.

However, for DH and I, this means our DC would need to be taken out of school again within a six month period and will result in a hefty fine as we have 3 DC. Whilst I could accept the fine, it would mean we could not take a family holiday during term time for another three years due to the new laws.

We simply can not afford school holiday prices. We are planning to decline the Easter gathering but I’m really disappointed and upset for my DC.

I suppose the new laws are clearly working if there are others like us?

Before anyone tells me that holidays are a luxury, not a right, I’m aware of this. However, you can’t tell me this affects the rich and their DC in the same way. It’s another way of separating the haves and the have nots. Nobody on their death bed ever regretted family time.

Can I also point out that our democratically elected governments have made the rules. Encourage protests all you like but if things don't change it doesn't just mean you can do what you like.

What kind of message do you think you are sending to your children and the children at school wondering where little Johnny is this week?

You are showing your children that rules should be broken to suit you, rules don't apply if you don't agree with them. Honestly, it's no wonder society is so fucked up.

I am genuinely shocked that you can't see a bigger picture. It's not just about you.

I think it’s really, really important that our kids understand that when we don’t agree with things or their are injustices we can fight to change them. Sometimes that does even mean peaceful protest (in this case all parents removing their children for one day would be an example).

If you don’t have proper democratic accountability then you end up with (often very violent) revolutions. Our young people are very vulnerable at the moment to such ideas.

Do you not think life Experience plays a part?....

Sure, but I'm not sure how much life experience two weeks AI in Tenerife is going to give a child.

It's a silly excuse for taking kids out of school. I'd rather people just be honest and say they want a cheaper holiday.

It's unfair to teachers to take your kids out during term time.
It's unfair to kids to take your kids out during term time.
Even a few days can miss key learning.
Most people struggle with the extra holiday expense - It's unfair when people keep doing it and other people just have to suck it up.
There needs to be a deterrent otherwise people just keep taking their kids out year after year.

The fining system isn't a deterrent. It doesn't work, and escalating it isn't the answer either because we don't have court capacity. We need a carrot rather than a stick based approach.

Of course we can fight to change them. We always need to ask questions and hold people to account.

However, we also need to accept that there are rules and boundaries which are in place to keep us safe and help society to function. That these are also an element of our current democratic system and that non-adherence creates it's own problems.

Schools operate on collective compliance. Behaviour at present is awful in many schools. In my experience, the ones that don't are the ones where there is a collective expectation of acceptable, normal behaviours.

I disagree. It is not a deterrent to those that would do it anyway but it is for those who generally wouldn't. Deterrence as a theory is very difficult to unpick for the same reasons. In school's you often see the same kids popping up on detention/isolation lists which would suggest it doesn't work. It doesn't work as a deterrent for them but it does work for the others.

people who can afford it just factor the fine into the holiday - it’s still cheaper than going away in school bomidays 🤣

There are probably individuals for whom it might function as a deterrent, but on a societal level it is quite obviously not working. Kids are being taken out.

The social contract on school attendance has changed, there's research on this and Ofsted have talked about it. And part of this is there's more acceptance of term time holidays. This research goes into it specifically- it's from 2023 but I don't think anything much has changed.

https://www.publicfirst.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/ATTENDANCE-REPORT-V02.pdf

They found that term time holidays are now entirely acceptable across all socio-economic groups.

I always take DD out for a few days each year for various trips, such as a long weekend or a theme park visit with less queues. I'm always very honest with the school, whereas going forward i'll probably just lie and say she is ill, which is what most parents i know will do.

All that will happen is school's sickness levels will drastically increase as term term holidays decrease

It is a deterrent - both as saying “we do not want this behaviour and we will penalise it” and, on a purely practical level, reducing or eliminating the cost-benefit side of holidaying in term time.

As PP said, it doesn’t deter everyone, but more people would go away in term time if the fines didn’t exist. On a societal level, we want to minimise behaviour that is unrealistic to eliminate. And it can take years to change - my dad’s generation never thought twice about being “fine to drive” on a couple of glasses of wine, but my generation and below know that it isn’t - doesn’t mean drink driving is eliminated, but ”casual” drink driving has been reduced over time.

It's not a sufficiently effective deterrent to have prevented an increase in term time holidays.

And that has to be balanced against the problems the policy causes. We know, and have had examples on this thread, of parents blaming the schools who didn't cause it but get lumbered with it anyway. It creates and worsens alienation, damages relationships between parents and schools. On a recent thread on the issue, we heard from a head of governors about just what a waste of time and resources it is. These are time and resources that aren't available for anything else. Any argument that it's helping on a practical level also has to factor in what we could be doing with them instead.

Get your in- laws to give you the money and book a cheaper uk break in school holidays. That’s what a lot of people do.

Agree with Pp though - carrot and stick better approach. People now just don’t see a problem with taking kids out of school because they “learn far more outside the classroom” and “making memories” is more important than anything. This narrative needs to be addressed. No. You won’t learn more spending a week by the pool in Spain eating at ye old British chippy with hundreds of other brits. You can ‘make memories’ at the weekend and in school holidays.
I totally understand that military families need allowances and do get that some holidays are educational but let’s be realistic- most aren’t.

I don’t see an issue with the fines, if people can’t obey the rules there are consequences put in place, this is not specific to schools.

If people didn’t take these holidays, absence level would globally be lower and there would be more understanding for genuine medical absences.

People post about why it is the only way for them to have a holiday but honestly, for 99% the choice is made to have better value for money (nicer hotel, more convenient flights, expensive destination etc) NOT because they couldn’t afford any holiday otherwise.

In all of my DC’s classes there were several families who would take regular term time holidays purely for cost/convenience. It wasn’t one term time holiday or no holiday at all for the year.

🙄 why do you think you can make up your own rules.

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree.
I think draconian rules actually decrease compliance because you lose the support of parents. Having 10 days a year for those who normally attend school regularly (when well) would make significantly more parents support attendance policies. The current policy simply alienates parents.

She probably can? What she described there would be easy enough to achieve for a lot of people.

Whilst we can agree to disagree I can't really understand how you think this would work in practice. There are around 30 students per class in secondary. If every student takes a random ten days, how is that learning going to be caught up. It's not just the catching up, it's the impact on subsequent learning. I just don't understand how you think schools can be accountable for learning when face with this challenge?

The whole education system needs a massive rethink but allowing term-time holidays should not be on a priority list.

I see this thread has been brought back. At our school many families do a 1 week term time holiday and noones been fined. 1 week off isn't going to ruin your kids education.

Serfs

The teachers cannot do this, and many of them have kids themselves. If a teacher took time off during term for a family holiday there would be absolute ructions. They can't seem to get a day off for a wedding midweek FGS, yet they have to tolerate some parents taking kids out when it suits the parents and their pockets.

I have no school age kids so could anyone tell me what the consequences of NOT paying fines are?

I think things would be a lot better for everyone if summer holidays were shortened to 4 weeks and students were given a two week holiday allocation per year to use as they wish (perhaps with the caveat that the two extra weeks cannot be taken consecutively). It would definitely reduce the burden on working parents for summer care, and kids would not have as much ‘summer slide’ academically.