is it normal for secondary schools to use fear their induction method for year 7s

[Alevelquestions]

My child started secondary this Wednesday and the school has concentrated on emphasising all the ways they might get detentions. Kids have already been given detentions for not having the right colour pens, for not sitting straight or for forgetting parts of their PE kit. This is within three days of starting. My kid hasn’t had a detention but on Friday he told me he spent the whole day trying not to cry because he thought he’d have detention for forgetting his white board. The school prides itself on discipline but it seems to be at the expense of humanity and remembering these are quite young kids undergoing a major and unsettling transition. Is this the normal approach nowadays? It genuinely makes me so sad.

I’m sorry, that’s really, really hard.

I’m considering paying for online school to avoid a pretty nasty academy trust locally. My child is really well behaved in primary but I know this environment would be harmful even if they managed never to break the rules, the worry would start to impact their mental health very quickly.

I'm a Y7 form tutor. Our approach has been warm, welcoming and emphasising belonging to a community, enjoying learning both in and out of class, making friends and feeling happy and supported.
No detentions in first 2 weeks, lots and lots of achievement points though.
No draconian lists of 2 red pens etc.
Y8 buddies with each form to answer questions and show them to lessons. Early lunch until next Fri.

It's a big busy typical high school, but not part of any trust. (It's a faith school) Gets great results so we must be doing something right. Relatively deprived area, takes from over 40 different primary schools.

Yes - it's these awful academy trusts.
Horrible schools - ran like businesses and treat the pupils like inmates in a prison.

Wow @IFinishedTheBiscuits that's sounds horrible. What baffles me is that teachers actually go along with this. I'm not a teacher but if my boss told me to treat people that way I'd think she had lost the plot and I'd refuse. I'd sooner lose my job than treat children like crap

I think part of the problem is to do with primary schools and parenting.

An 11 year old should be responsible and able enough to take responsibility for having the right equipment and books for their lessons.

The trouble is that parents have become so infantilising that they don't work on getting their child to that basic point before they get to high school and primary schools are frankly terrified of over bearing parents who complain about the slightest thing.

Look at the threads on walking to school and how many parents say their children can't get themselves up, dressed, do their own teeth and make themselves breakfast by age 9. And then say the school are right not to let 9 year olds walk home 300 ms by themselves when there's no road 'because rules and safeguarding'.

Look at the concerns about the sheer number of children going into reception who aren't yet potty trained. This number is growing and isn't related to SEN numbers.

Meanwhile it's normal for kids in Europe to be walking to school by themselves by age 6.

It means you get a bunch of kids and parents who have the shock of their lives when the expectations are laid out before them in this way. Yet the next family don't see the same issue in terms of this expectation.

The high school don't have the time nor money to be dealing with kids who don't have their basic stuff. It's disruptive to the class as a whole if you have a kid who say "miss I don't have a pen"

The OP goes on about this discipline being at "the expense of humanity". That says it all really. It's not an unreasonable expectation for 11 year olds to be able to manage their property. That's not against their humanity! It's expecting kids to be responsible in a way that's appropriate for the setting and situation.

How are these kids going to manage day to day in life when they are older? This is basic stuff. It's not an unreasonable level of responsibility.

One of the comments on this thread is precisely about how immature the current cohort of yr7 is. And the issue is getting worse imho.

Parents do not want their kids to develop life skills and abilities. They are facilitating it. And it's having a massive impact.

The schools then get blamed as the cause of poor mental health because of their 'draconian' regimes.

I'm not fully buying into this concept of it being Draconian to expect kids to have their stuff when they should. It's parents who have failed to work on things like teaching their kids to tie show laces or look after their school jumper without losing it whilst at primary.

If the kids can't cope with some of this stuff by this age, what's gone wrong. They aren't coping, but how is the school supposed to manage so many kids who haven't got the right kid for PE? Or have forgotten their calculator for maths? They can't get on with teaching in that situation. And it's unfair on the kids who have managed it. The school haven't been responsible for these kids prior to this point so how can they be responsible for this inability? If it's not the school who have been responsible for the past eleven years, where else must we look?

Having spent enough time helping out in DSs primary and hearing the demands of some of the parents Im not surprised. One parent said they didn't think a certain book was appropriate because it was scaring their child in yr2. It was a factual book about the weather which was completely age appropriate. Another said they didn't think they should be learning about the great fire of London as it was too serious and adult. There a whole pile more examples that have really made me roll my eyes and think wtaf.

I dunno. I am not sure what else schools are supposed to do. If they took a much softer line, then increased then increased the expectation over the first half term parents would still complain about it being too harsh and unfair that they'd done that.

There are far too many parents that don't expect their kids to do things like help out at home or learn to do their own washing by the time they are 16. It's part of the same problem.

Is it Michaela school?

I think some of the very strict multi academy trusts are almost as horrible to the teachers as they are to the pupils.

Teachers at one school in Cambridgeshire went on strike recently, partly because they didn't agree with the behaviour policies but they've been told they can work elsewhere if they're not happy. There have been news reports of a culture of fear among teachers.

It’s the fault of the heads and governors. Yes some dc are forgetful and not organised. Deal with them and be pleasant to the others. You don’t have to be a fully trained adult at 11.

They’re 11 years old! Children by definition are immature.

If teachers don’t understand this then it’s no mystery as to why the English education system is so fucked.

i think the idea is that when children have expectations around behaviour and managing themselves down it leaves space for learning. It’s a bit brutal to be handing out detentions in year 7 but I agree with pp about expecting an 11 yr old to sort themselves out. I can’t remember my mum ever having to help me sort out my bag when I was a kid, I sorted myself out, what books I need, equipment etc. I’ve also met people who think y2’s learning about the great fire of london is inappropriate. I remember finding out about ancient Egyptian embalming practices in primary school and being quite excited about it. I think people underestimate kids quite a lot.

Maybe it’s an opportunity to build a bit of resilience and ownership, go through the rules and stick her class schedule on the wall and tell her to review it the night before and make sure she’s packed her bag correctly and she’ll be fine. I’ve had a few detentions and I was a people pleaser so took “getting it wrong” quite hard. But it’s fine, I survived.

I hope you not only survived. I hope you flourished, because that’s the point of schools - to bring out the best in their pupils and to inspire them to make the most of their individual talents.

I wouldn't pick a school like that for my child. I am a strict parent that believes in rules and boundaries but these schools focus on the wrong (minor) things with no allowances for children who are struggling or who make the odd mistake. Done if the rules of these places like no talking in between lessons or always looking at the teacher (ie never glancing up to think or briefly out the window) is appalling in my opinion and reminiscent of the "troubled teen industry" in the US which is based on very flawed and cult based theories with no evidence of efficacy. The schools aren't anywhere as bad as the camps but some of the rules and the inflexibility is very similar, (along with things like isolation) and the ethos behind them is also similar.

I went to quite a strict secondary school in the 80s and they did start as they meant to go on, and I think it is generally a good thing to get the ball rolling with expectations early, but my school weren't ridiculous about it. Detentions were given for proper infractions, there wasn't "isolation" and there was flexibility for the generally better behaved students for when they made a mistake or when children were struggling. If I parented like some of these academies I think I'd (quite rightly have social services round. These are children, not robots, and rules and punishments have to be balanced with understanding and kindness. Your child shouldn't be on the verge of tears all day because of fear of punishment for a minor infraction.

Yes. The school will set ridiculous rules and expectations while allowing severe and constant bullying to go unpunished. So your children will be bullied by certain kids who never seem to be dealt with or reprimanded, while being punished by teachers for coughing at the wrong time. It creates an abusive, unpredictable environment which leads to anxiety, adhd school refusal and depression. Compounding the issue, the kids can’t explain to the parents exactly what the problem is, because the kid who beat them up is apparently suicidal so can’t be punished for anything, but they are in constant detention for small things unless they are on constant high alert policing themselves. It’s creates misery and confusion

A lot of children like strict rules and boundaries as it helps to stop the bullies taking over and means they can hear what the teacher is saying. What is the worst that can happen? He gets a detention for getting something wrong. That means he has to sit silently in a classroom for a bit. Schools where bad behaviour has taken over are a lot more scary. Fireworks let off down the corridors, furniture being thrown, constant disruption, aggression from others, sexual assault are the kind of things that happen when discipline goes to pot. Schools get all comers including people who never make it into the work force. Two of my DH’s ex classmates are currently in prison, one for murder. The rules may seem a bit much but they are actually there to help keep your child safe. The idea is that being strict about the small stuff helps prevent the really nasty stuff from happening. It doesn’t always work but it any one has any better ideas that actually work then schools would certainly love to hear about them.

This is why this sort of approach is completely counter-productive. If you can get a detention for something that isn't by any stretch of the imagination your fault, there's no point trying to avoid it, and no stigma. In the meantime, this school is demonstrating that it won't do anything about theft and assault by its pupils. It's hardly surprising that they have a major behaviour problem.

Well, children learn by example so if the big school bullies the small boy the small boy learns to bully the smaller boy.

That's a fine way to make a child think they can run riot and do what they want. For the stuff that doesn't deserve a detention yeah maybe but where do you draw the line?

I do get that some schools are OTT but kids are fucking feral these days. It's good that there's more focus on mental health but that shouldn't mean at the expense of overlooking bad behaviour.

This sounds very sad and hasn’t been our experience at all with our DS who started this week too. We’ve been super impressed with the effort his school have gone to to make the new Year 7s feel welcome and were told the first couple of weeks in particular would be about settling in, finding their way, sorting things out. This is a good state comprehensive with a good reputation.
I also used to teach secondary- albeit before my DS was born but still! - and we’d never have given detentions for the wrong coloured pen in the first couple of days! However, my old comp from the town I grew up in is part of a large academy and has apparently become VERY strict, no talking in corridors etc etc (to the extent where parents have formed committees to protest!) so it does happen and varies a lot from school to school.

Exactly this the consequences of every little thing means nothing when it's constant and lots of times unfair to.

I think this is my old school!! Teachers striking, parents up in arms, kids miserable… great 😢
It, again, was a good, normal school with good results etc etc back in the day - it sounds hateful now for both students and teachers.
Academies are not always the way forward…

Secondary schools can have hundreds, if not thousands of pupils. They can't tailor a plan to each child's needs. If a parent wants that, they need to home educate.

@HRCsMumma
And yet hundreds of secondary schools manage to provide an enriching education in an environment that is broadly content. So if some schools can do it why can’t they all?

Yet many of them manage to know their pupils pretty well. It's not difficult, you do it by setting up a normal structure under which Heads of Year and class teachers have responsibility for making sure they get to know aa relatively small number of pupils well.

The trouble is, that that takes a bit of work and actually caring about what the government gives you money to do. Some Academy chains find it much easier to go in for pointlessly strict discipline and uniform policies instead.

Lots and lots of schools are like it now and I'd say over half in my area. I hate it. It's more like a prison and kids can start to think they're "bad" and "in trouble" very early on. I don't think fear is the way to go..

I think it's perhaps unintended consequences of what ofsted measure. It often gets results. And "controls" children when there isn't a high staff ratio.

Often with very specific rules in class (penalised for not tracking the teacher
... Look up SLANT but there's others).

The strictest one near us (occasionally in the papers for detentions/exclusions on the first day for minor things) got a visit from a Tory minister and lots of praise... So others copy.

They drill exam answers.

It isn't at all what I would want but this happens when people don't listen to actual teaches. This happens when we academies and make every school identikit in the chain. This happens when we only praise better and better results. When we treat children like a product.

This happens when parents chase ofsted outstanding and ofsted has previously awarded outstanding to these type of schools...

Individual teachers have to follow the script (literally at times) so it isn't down to teachers.

And since we've allowed schools to train their win teachers we have a whole lot coming through who only know how to read from a script/PowerPoint and expect robots to function.

One I read recently was child excluded first day, parents obviously rush in shocked, and the carefully bought black shoes that had not to have a logo etc were the wrong material.

Lots of similar stories. "No excuses" schools.

Its criminal the way the government control has led to this. MATS and Academy run like a business with units and not like a school nurturing children.