Lucy Letby in the news

[Viviennemary]

I've just been watching the BBC news and apparently some experts have been questioning the validity of Lucy Letbys conviction. I must say when I read the details of the trial she did sound 100% guilty. But it would be a tragedy if she is innocent Personally I don't think she is but who knows. Somebody on the news said the only person who knows is Lucy Letby.

So are any of the LL is innocent mob going to address the 40% tube dislodgements found at the previous hospital?

Who are this 'LL is innocent' mob?
Some people have questioned whether the process leading to the conviction was carried out correctly; that doesn't mean people necessarily believe the conviction was wrong.

I haven't seen a single person on here say LL is innocent. But it is all getting a bit batshit, with a recent poster even accusing another poster of being LL's parent...

@lolly792 well looks like it was carried out correctly doesn't it? Yes there are posters absolutely convinced it's a miscarriage of justice. But no I don't think any of them are LL's parents!

No it doesn’t look like that at all. Everyone is entitled to a fair trial. It looks very likely that people were biased against her and she had a rubbish defence team.

@BlueLimeRun yeah biased against her because she did it 🙄if you come to the only conclusion you can which is that she's guilty you realise the defence did all they could with what they had to work with.

Carried out correctly? When all sorts of stuff like the breathing tube dislodgements at another hospital are coming out now? Not to mention all the shit going down among staff at the countess of Chester hospital?

Wow.

Breathing tube dislodgements at another hospital wouldn’t have been relevant to the case would they. I’d imagine it’s coming out now because it’s only now that Operation Hummingbird is going back and looking at previous work places.

That would've probably risked prejudicing the trial.

Think might of just had one on YT ranting at me about supporting a baby killer. That they know she was playing the nhs game of putting in grievances against doctors, all sorts of information about ward staff. I have concerns about the evidence that was presented & if she had a fair trial if expert witnesses & colleagues were too worried to speak on her behalf because of the impact on their careers. I don’t have all the information to make a decision on her innocence or guilt. Just concerns & the impact for staff in the nhs.

How so?

There is no LL is innocent mob.

I think it could be potentially very damning and it could be the thing that would convince many that she did it, however much more information is needed, we have seen how things have been presented in the trial and how they would make out that LL was the only common denominator and ignore other stuff.... .so there would need to be full transparency about the dislodgements and what it was put down to at the time and I'm sure many others would have lots of other questions too.

How many dislodgements were there in total?
How accurate is the 1% figure?
If she was training there then was she not being supervised the entire time?
Perhaps she wasn't at the later placement but the earlier one was 2012 so presumably that was all supervised?

UEs are usually expressed as a total number, or per hours, per days or per patient.

Expressing UE per shift is odd - how long is a shift - 8, 10, 12 hours? Risk factors include restlessness, patient procedures, ventilation. Ventilation risk increases 3% per day on ventilation as per one study so unless you know how many babies were ventilated the figures are meaningless. And the most common cause according to another study is self-extubation.

As LL was on a placement she would have been supervised, and they’ve supplied no other nurse shifts to compare the figure to.

In short we are back to abuse of statistics as at the trial.

I dont think that there is a LL is innocent mob either.

Only LL knows whether she did it or not.

But there are an awful lot of people, me included, are not convinced that she had a fair trial. A lot of people who feel that the evidence presented by the prosecution compared to the rebuttal that the prosecution DIDNT present, didnt lead to a "Guilty beyond all reasonable doubt" verdict.

I agree with a PP who mention Private Eye as a good place to start when scrutinising the evidence. No is suggesting that she is innocent but that, on what was presented in court by both sides, she wasnt fairly represented and was indeed prejudged before she stepped into the dock.

I personally feel that her conviction is unsafe and there there should be a retrial although how you would find a truly unbiased jury, I wouldnt like to say.

Too late to edit: ”Expressing UE per shift” should say ”expressing UE in % of shifts”

This exact point was the subject of to and fro between me and another poster a few pages back in the thread, days ago.

There are disclosure rules requiring disclosure of any material assisting the defence which the prosecution aren’t relying on. So anything about those other deaths or collapses which may have assisted LL would have been available. There’s no evidence of the defence being unhappy with any disclosure issues.

So many of the points raised rely entirely on Ben Myers KC having been completely shit. A KC. A read of the CA judgment (anybody? No, thought not) shows you that he was not shit. Apart from anything else, LL kept him for the appeal! Maybe, just maybe, he did his utmost with what he had.

Because knowing the staff referred to her as "nurse death" probably isn't a great start to the trial and any possibility of finding her innocent. And as a PP said they probably didn't know what she was doing at the other hospital until recently. It seems she was insanely prolific, it's a huge amount to investigate and they only looked at a one year period for the trial.

One thing I noticed generally were a number of groups making profound apologies quickly without defending their actions. I think maybe to ensure they weren't criticised more to a further extent in the final report.

The NMC were expected to take a guilty until proven innocent approach to this and suspend Lucy on what was then a speculation about patient harm by a subset of colleagues. I don't think it was a competency issue and it is strange no one thought of Lucy as bad at the job. In fact the NMC has a role to be fair and there may have been support for Lucy which at this point is hidden as it would look poor on those offering support.

As a an aside I don't quite like the throwing nurses under the bus approach here with only consultants appearing to be the voice of reason in this. We do not get a picture of the relationships Lucy had within her trust and how her grievances may have looked personally reasonable in the first place. I also think looking at the NH S as a whole we want a culture of people raising grievances being seen as simply as wanting to avoid scrutiny. We would have a situation of anyone who wanted to whistelblow on bullying as cynically manipulating the trust process to avoid scrutiny. 'Your being bullied or harassed you say.....well what's the reason for that shall we have a dog into your performance ' This is the opposite of supporting whistleblowing.

It may very well have been the initial grievance did hold weight and those upholding Lucy's complaint made a reasonable judgment in supporting a bite who thought she was unduly being professionally harassed. But no everyone just seems immediately sorry which I find a bit perturbing.

It's less an enquiry more of an opportunity for those groups involved to throw down their apologies to avoid possible further action. Please do remember there may be those with current careers that are anxious to get out of this unscathed relatively.

The death rates reduced after she was removed because the neonatal unit was downgraded, so they no longer took the sickest babies.

I don't know whether LL is guilty or not. If she is then she is in the right place. If she isn't then the truth needs to come out.

I know I'm not in the parents situation who feel they have justice, and obviously don't want it all bought up again however with the question marks being risen I would want it reinvestigated.

I wouldn't want the wrong person/s to be held to account. I am not going off what forums say.

I am looking at what the Dr's, nurses, medical investigators etc are saying. It needs to be checked out. If it was my child I would be screaming for all these reports to be investigated.

I would want to get to the bottom of it. That's me and my temperament

Baby C? Isn’t that the baby where Letby had to be told to leave the room as Baby C wasn’t her assigned baby? And she also had to be asked to leave the Family Room after the baby had died.

BabyC was the third baby to have suffered a serious deterioration in the matter of a few days and Letby was the only nurse who had been on duty for all three collapse incidents for Child A, B and C.

In a police interview, Letby denied she had anything to do with Child C, other than with the resuscitation and “couldn’t remember” why she had ended up in nursery 1. She also couldn’t remember being pulled out of the Family Room either.

She is young, attractive white blonde woman. As a result, lot of people are invested in her being innocent. If she’s been a middle-aged, black migrant, the media picture would be very different.

This is an interesting claim to make in support of LL, because it’s the sort of unsupported statistical nonsense that I thought those questioning the conviction hated.

The ones who died while LL was present weren’t even the sickest babies.

And what about the death rate going up when LL arrived? Did that coincide with the unit being upgraded to take the sickest babies?

And if she had been a middle aged black migrant with a wooden eye they would have thrown her in a ditch with a owl probably. So sad 😔 young attractive white blonde women with both eyes need taking down a peg or two, guilty or not!

Only if they murdered babies in NICU.

You reading comprehension is shot. I said the media picture would have been different Do you think the headlines and opinion columns would have been the same if she were a Muslim? What if she were a trans woman?

I have no problem with justice taking its course, whatever the result. Having read all of the evidence I agree with the jury, but my opinion is irrelevant.