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Super yacht sinking - did the crew bravely survive or did they abandon their the passengers

833 replies

mids2019 · 24/08/2024 08:15

So....most of the crew survived this tragedy but the passengers died. Do you think it will emerge the crew should have e done more to alrt the passengers and indeed put their lives in danger to attempt a rescue? Maybe it was all just too fast?

I just think there seems silence from the crew at moment despite being survivors of a sinking vessel who have a story to tell. Are lawyers advising they stay quiet on this?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
SheilaFentiman · 26/08/2024 10:39

I will also bet my boots that the insurers won’t be off handed of classifying it as an “Act of God” either.

They will be scrutinising their small print to see if this particular weather condition was covered.

Waiting for the investigation to see if there were contributing factors such as poor maintenance, human error, a broken alarm system, use of the boat outside of manufacturer parameters (eg keel
positon etc)

And probably the outcome will be a settlement that covers some but not all of the cost, because of the likely multi factor aspects

Rosscameasdoody · 26/08/2024 10:42

SheilaFentiman · 26/08/2024 10:39

I will also bet my boots that the insurers won’t be off handed of classifying it as an “Act of God” either.

They will be scrutinising their small print to see if this particular weather condition was covered.

Waiting for the investigation to see if there were contributing factors such as poor maintenance, human error, a broken alarm system, use of the boat outside of manufacturer parameters (eg keel
positon etc)

And probably the outcome will be a settlement that covers some but not all of the cost, because of the likely multi factor aspects

Wouldn’t surprise me either. I suppose it depends on how much warning there was of the storm hitting and the reasons they weren’t as prepared as they should have been if they had enough advance warning.

HazelPlayer · 26/08/2024 10:43

Rosscameasdoody · 26/08/2024 10:38

No, the charge of abandoning ship was as a result of Schettino disregarding a direct order from the coastguard to go back to the ship to help the passengers. There was a recording played in court, of the telephone call between the two men, in which the coastguard repeatedly orders him back to the ship to oversee the evacuation, and Schettino refuses. It wasn’t specifically linked to the number of deaths - that was addressed in the charge of the manslaughter of the 32 passengers who died as a result of Schettino’s actions causing the shipwreck

The charges interacted with each other.

They do not separate out neatly like that.

(They may be separated for admin/legal reasons, but it's clear they interact in reality).

Personally I'm not wasting any more time debating this.

Rosscameasdoody · 26/08/2024 10:53

HazelPlayer · 26/08/2024 10:43

The charges interacted with each other.

They do not separate out neatly like that.

(They may be separated for admin/legal reasons, but it's clear they interact in reality).

Personally I'm not wasting any more time debating this.

Your first post specifically attributed the jail sentence to the charge of abandoning ship Are you schettino? Of course he should have stayed with the ship and help HIS passengers! That’s why he ended up in prison!

Various posters have pointed out that the reason he ended up in prison was because he actually caused the accident - that’s why he alone was charged with manslaughter. You’ve backtracked several times in response to each post, so yes, l agree, further debate is a waste of time.

HazelPlayer · 26/08/2024 10:53

I've found some of the comments about waking guests & having them sat around on deck for hours in life jackets almost laughable - even from some of the Italian investigators/builders. Do you have any idea how many time guests on a superyacht will go to bed with a storm front of 50 knot winds forecast, the yacht drags anchor a bit - and all they know about it is that they wake up in a different, incredibly beautiful bay? Often enough!

Presumably not on a sailing yacht with one of the largest masts in the world, top heavy (especially if the keel was not fully down) etc. etc.

rosesyrup · 26/08/2024 10:54

MeandT · 26/08/2024 09:34

Goodness, what a lot of speculation & conjecture-along with a handful of helpings of vindictive nastiness.

This yacht sank because of what insurers classify as an 'act of god' (regardless of what anyone's personal position on god is)!

The Italian system clearly has a process to investigate any and all lines of inquiry where there is interaction which may give rise to circumstances of manslaughter.

As a UK flagged yacht, the MAIB will also need to conduct a full investigation and report.

It is deeply unlikely that a bunch of non-specialist gossips on Mumsnet will be the ones to get to the bottom of this!

But for the avoidance of doubt - the captain may have done nothing wrong. The crew may have done nothing wrong. And the builders may have done nothing wrong.

If the keel was partially up, that may have been a contributing factor. If watertight compartments were left unsecured, that will have been a contributing factor.

I've found some of the comments about waking guests & having them sat around on deck for hours in life jackets almost laughable - even from some of the Italian investigators/builders. Do you have any idea how many time guests on a superyacht will go to bed with a storm front of 50 knot winds forecast, the yacht drags anchor a bit - and all they know about it is that they wake up in a different, incredibly beautiful bay? Often enough!

This storm front contained an extreme weather incident of some kind which created a direct hit (which didn't directly hit another yacht within half a mile). We don't know that the captain didn't have the engines on trying to prevent the anchor from further dragging.

We don't know what structural damage may have occurred on the starboard side the boat is resting on on the seabed - which the divers can't assess.

We don't know whether the keel WAS fully deployed but folded up somewhat as the boat settled-this seems perhaps less likely, but is still a possibility.

Even if the keel wasn't fully deployed, there may be reasons, including 'the boss' asking for it not to be all the way down because of how it makes the boat behave at anchor (affecting swing circle size, movement and jerking at the edges of the swing). We DON'T know.

Investigators will ask the questions to try to find out.

Some suggestions will come out of the investigation (which may or may not include additional rules on securing matresses; weight/volume limits of unsecured furnishings per cabin; linked speakers & emergency button for a muster alarm the same as you have on a ferry; and/or rules about when everyone on board MUST be woken & mustered - so the next poor sod who tries to do the right thing & wakes the guests at 4am to sit around with life jackets for 3 hours isn't just fired for "ruining their holiday for no reason").... you can see that the judgement required for the decisions taken at the time are well outside our sphere of understanding because WE WEREN'T THERE at the time.

Please let the survivors get on with their recovery (as traumatic as that will be). There are so many holes in the few facts which have been reported in the press (even the timeline is unclear, with poor witness accounts and potentially offset CCTV timestamps).

To gossip is human but you WILL not resolve answers here.

Let the investigators get on with their investigation.

And if you dwell on anything, perhaps let it be what you personally can do to reduce your personal fossil fuel footprint, so the power of extreme weather events such as this can at some point eventually start reducing, too!

Yes, Mummy.

For someone posting such a lengthy scolding, you seem singularly ill-informed on the currently known facts of this case.

HazelPlayer · 26/08/2024 10:55

Rosscameasdoody · 26/08/2024 10:53

Your first post specifically attributed the jail sentence to the charge of abandoning ship Are you schettino? Of course he should have stayed with the ship and help HIS passengers! That’s why he ended up in prison!

Various posters have pointed out that the reason he ended up in prison was because he actually caused the accident - that’s why he alone was charged with manslaughter. You’ve backtracked several times in response to each post, so yes, l agree, further debate is a waste of time.

You are quoting the wrong person.

You've mixed me up with another poster.

That's not my post and I haven't "back tracked" several times; I've only posted a couple of times in the last two pages about what Schettino was charged with. And I've said exactly the same thing each time .... That he was charged with abandoning the ship, and that whether that was a separate charge or not, it's clear to anyone with a brain that it contributed to the cause of the manslaughter charges.

Calliopespa · 26/08/2024 11:04

MeandT · 26/08/2024 09:34

Goodness, what a lot of speculation & conjecture-along with a handful of helpings of vindictive nastiness.

This yacht sank because of what insurers classify as an 'act of god' (regardless of what anyone's personal position on god is)!

The Italian system clearly has a process to investigate any and all lines of inquiry where there is interaction which may give rise to circumstances of manslaughter.

As a UK flagged yacht, the MAIB will also need to conduct a full investigation and report.

It is deeply unlikely that a bunch of non-specialist gossips on Mumsnet will be the ones to get to the bottom of this!

But for the avoidance of doubt - the captain may have done nothing wrong. The crew may have done nothing wrong. And the builders may have done nothing wrong.

If the keel was partially up, that may have been a contributing factor. If watertight compartments were left unsecured, that will have been a contributing factor.

I've found some of the comments about waking guests & having them sat around on deck for hours in life jackets almost laughable - even from some of the Italian investigators/builders. Do you have any idea how many time guests on a superyacht will go to bed with a storm front of 50 knot winds forecast, the yacht drags anchor a bit - and all they know about it is that they wake up in a different, incredibly beautiful bay? Often enough!

This storm front contained an extreme weather incident of some kind which created a direct hit (which didn't directly hit another yacht within half a mile). We don't know that the captain didn't have the engines on trying to prevent the anchor from further dragging.

We don't know what structural damage may have occurred on the starboard side the boat is resting on on the seabed - which the divers can't assess.

We don't know whether the keel WAS fully deployed but folded up somewhat as the boat settled-this seems perhaps less likely, but is still a possibility.

Even if the keel wasn't fully deployed, there may be reasons, including 'the boss' asking for it not to be all the way down because of how it makes the boat behave at anchor (affecting swing circle size, movement and jerking at the edges of the swing). We DON'T know.

Investigators will ask the questions to try to find out.

Some suggestions will come out of the investigation (which may or may not include additional rules on securing matresses; weight/volume limits of unsecured furnishings per cabin; linked speakers & emergency button for a muster alarm the same as you have on a ferry; and/or rules about when everyone on board MUST be woken & mustered - so the next poor sod who tries to do the right thing & wakes the guests at 4am to sit around with life jackets for 3 hours isn't just fired for "ruining their holiday for no reason").... you can see that the judgement required for the decisions taken at the time are well outside our sphere of understanding because WE WEREN'T THERE at the time.

Please let the survivors get on with their recovery (as traumatic as that will be). There are so many holes in the few facts which have been reported in the press (even the timeline is unclear, with poor witness accounts and potentially offset CCTV timestamps).

To gossip is human but you WILL not resolve answers here.

Let the investigators get on with their investigation.

And if you dwell on anything, perhaps let it be what you personally can do to reduce your personal fossil fuel footprint, so the power of extreme weather events such as this can at some point eventually start reducing, too!

I do agree that too much speculation is inappropriate.

Everyone on that ship has been involved in a tragedy and I really can’t see that anyone was motivated to make it more awful than it needed to be. It’s reasonable to start with the position that people made every effort to minimise it and to depart from that view if and when solid information justifies it.

Grammarnut · 26/08/2024 11:05

InevitableNameChanger · 25/08/2024 18:55

I didn't do proper life boat training but my understanding is that you are taught to get in the lifeboat first and then haul others in. I imagine it is more possible that way than when both are in the water

Yes, of course. I was thinking of evacuating a boat i.e. launching the lifeboats. You also need strong rowers even if the life-boat has an engine?

INeedAnotherName · 26/08/2024 11:05

@rosesyrup Yes, Mummy.
For someone posting such a lengthy scolding, you seem singularly ill-informed on the currently known facts of this case.

Risking possible deletion here but I suspect you have the wrong sex, which explains the patronising, very long waffle very easily 😉

Grammarnut · 26/08/2024 11:07

masterblaster · 25/08/2024 19:19

Boris Johnson disagreed and suggested that they were pushing forward the bounds of human endeavour.

All engineers "uh, we already know how to calculate crush depth, we didn't need a human-crewed demonstration".

Totally disagree with Boris Johnson. Rather have the engineers, who knew what they were talking about. A carbon hull cannot be strong enough for the pressure it was required to withstand.

Grammarnut · 26/08/2024 11:17

seeminglyranch · 25/08/2024 18:14

Exactly — the prosecutor said “it would be fundamental to understand why nine of ten crew survivors yet six of the 12 passengers perished”. “I have asked about how they warned passengers,” he said.

I'm not sure it's the cook or the cleaner's job to evacuate passengers. But certainly the master and his crew. It isn't clear whether they had time. There are also other factors, as others have mentioned. The owner is a billionaire who won't be very happy to be dragged out of his bed for what he sees as 'no reason' if the boat does not actually sink.

SheilaFentiman · 26/08/2024 11:25

@@Grammarnut her bed - the owner was a company solely owned by Angela Bacares.

seeminglyranch · 26/08/2024 11:29

@Grammarnut did you know Mike Lynch personally? Because it sounds like you are making sweeping statements about “billionaires” and their attitudes rather than saying anything based on fact. He actually came from a pretty humble background and if you bother to read the personal testimonials eg from his bodyguard in the papers there’s nothing to suggest he would have had this attitude especially when the lives of those around him were at risk. As the prosecutor points out, it’s going to be fundamental to understand why there wasn’t time to muster the passengers — which seems to suggest there may have been an error by captain or crew which led to the boat sinking much more quickly than it would have if procedures had been followed.

TeamPolin · 26/08/2024 11:32

They are sailors. My guess is when the ship got into distress, they all rushed on deck to try and stabilise it, and thus, when it sunk, they were flung into the sea.

By the sound of it, the people who died were in cabins and got trapped by debris as the ship got flung about.

However I don't think the crew owe the public any kind of explanation - they should be talking to authorities and hopefully that information will be disseminated down to families. But they are recovering both physically and mentally from a terrible ordeal and we don't have right to expect the gory details.

MeandT · 26/08/2024 12:01

INeedAnotherName · 26/08/2024 11:05

@rosesyrup Yes, Mummy.
For someone posting such a lengthy scolding, you seem singularly ill-informed on the currently known facts of this case.

Risking possible deletion here but I suspect you have the wrong sex, which explains the patronising, very long waffle very easily 😉

You suspect incorrectly @INeedAnotherName. Female. And have spent 3 decades in the yachting industry, ship design, and classification. As you were.

Blinky21 · 26/08/2024 12:02

The captain of the boat next to the Bayesian said he thought it was just wrong place, wrong time. I hope it was a freak accident and no more lives are ruined through criminal charges

Calliopespa · 26/08/2024 12:05

Blinky21 · 26/08/2024 12:02

The captain of the boat next to the Bayesian said he thought it was just wrong place, wrong time. I hope it was a freak accident and no more lives are ruined through criminal charges

Those are very much my feelings too.

CorWotcha · 26/08/2024 12:07

Blinky21 · 26/08/2024 12:02

The captain of the boat next to the Bayesian said he thought it was just wrong place, wrong time. I hope it was a freak accident and no more lives are ruined through criminal charges

Yep

INeedAnotherName · 26/08/2024 12:07

MeandT · 26/08/2024 12:01

You suspect incorrectly @INeedAnotherName. Female. And have spent 3 decades in the yachting industry, ship design, and classification. As you were.

I highly doubt anything you posted there is true. Otherwise you wouldn't have been so quick to dismiss other posters in this thread.
It is deeply unlikely that a bunch of non-specialist gossips on Mumsnet

I won't be responding to you again as i don't want to derail this thread any further.

MtClair · 26/08/2024 12:24

INeedAnotherName · 26/08/2024 12:07

I highly doubt anything you posted there is true. Otherwise you wouldn't have been so quick to dismiss other posters in this thread.
It is deeply unlikely that a bunch of non-specialist gossips on Mumsnet

I won't be responding to you again as i don't want to derail this thread any further.

I have spent many many years sailing. I’ve been close to a water spout in RL. I’ve been in the middle of bad storms , incl once when we were on an anchor, close to shore etc….

I have no doubt that my experiences, that I suspect few on this thread ever have, will reflect what actually happened on that boat. But it has given me some ideas what is reasonable and what isn’t.

And there is nothing weird about what @MeandT posted.
And I fully agree that it’s not on this thread, with people making wild guesses on a subject they have no idea about, that you’ll find what actually happened.
And yes those calls are hurtful to the crew. Imagine being roasted on SM by strangers that think they know … just because.

Firethehorse · 26/08/2024 12:26

Twiglets1 · 24/08/2024 09:06

Maybe it's very hard to tell the super rich what to do which can actually have a negative impact on their safety in situations like this.

Except the people who worked with him, such as his security detail, said he was the most courteous, friendly and down to earth employer they had ever worked for. There is no way he would have knowingly compromised the safety of his family, friends and crew to keep cooler had he been aware of the forecast. We don’t even know whose idea it was to have the hatches open.
I agree the crew should not sacrifice themselves but I disagree the Captain had no responsibility whatsoever. There would have been numerous crew supposedly trained and responsible for safety on that yacht, of course not the waiters and cooks but definitely the Captain as a start. The weather conditions were known in advance, so there have been numerous huge errors made and people have died both rich and not so rich. It is tragic but also right it’s investigated. Yacht Captains are usually extremely well paid for the reason they are responsible for the vessel, crew and passengers whilst at sea.

SheilaFentiman · 26/08/2024 12:34

There are keen amateur sailors and people with aviation and insurance and engineering experience on the thread too. And no doubt other posters with other relevant backgrounds - I am citing the ones I know. Many have cited relevant information.

Some posts have been personal/unpleasant. But for that poster to characterise the thread in general as non-specialist gossips was unreasonable.

INeedAnotherName · 26/08/2024 12:37

@MtClair it was the total dismissiveness that anyone here could even faintly grasp what happened as nobody would have any experience or career (adjacent or otherwise). Your many years sailing (and therefore general knowledge of sails, masts, storms or anchors etc) were not valid as you were just a silly Mumsnetter. Whether they meant that or not, many posters took it the same as me.

HazelPlayer · 26/08/2024 12:38

Firethehorse · 26/08/2024 12:26

Except the people who worked with him, such as his security detail, said he was the most courteous, friendly and down to earth employer they had ever worked for. There is no way he would have knowingly compromised the safety of his family, friends and crew to keep cooler had he been aware of the forecast. We don’t even know whose idea it was to have the hatches open.
I agree the crew should not sacrifice themselves but I disagree the Captain had no responsibility whatsoever. There would have been numerous crew supposedly trained and responsible for safety on that yacht, of course not the waiters and cooks but definitely the Captain as a start. The weather conditions were known in advance, so there have been numerous huge errors made and people have died both rich and not so rich. It is tragic but also right it’s investigated. Yacht Captains are usually extremely well paid for the reason they are responsible for the vessel, crew and passengers whilst at sea.

The hatches some commentators have referred to are NOT roof window type hatches for air.

They are big, waterline level openings at the rear of the yacht for equipment etc.