Addressing someone in the 3rd person

[WineIsMyCarb]

Had a small glass of something and am idly wondering... which, if any, modern foreign languages still frequently use the 3rd person to address people formally, particularly at work.

In English we might address a taxi driver as "driver" ("cheers drive" if in Bristol, obvs), an MP with portfolio as Minister, a vicar as Reverend, Permanent Secretary, Headmaster, Chef, etc.

It's rare that I might he addressed as "madam".

A family member was a native Polish speaker, and I've heard disagreement about whether one would address their Babcia in the 3rd person (husband never did). I spoke decent French as a teenager but never had an office job in France - would you use tu or vous for your immediate boss these days? Big Director?

I understand Germans have always addressed colleagues as Mr/Mrs SoAnd So (Herr/Frau, etc - relying heavily on Year 9 German here!). Is that still true?

All clarifications and any other languages welcome!

Surely it actually needs a third-person form of the verb to qualify as third person?

"If Mum just lifts up her arm..." is third person which you can tell by the "-s" ending on "lifts" but I don't think the original example is. If you address someone directly with "you" it's second person.

If you are addressing someone directly ('Turn left here, driver') then you are using the second person imperative (an imperative is a command), along with the person's title (in this case, 'driver').

If you are referring to someone, but not addressing them directly, then you are using the third person ('The driver needs to turn left here.')

English verbs are irregular but usually you will notice that the second person form of the verb is different to the third person form, which will give you a clue: the third person (singular) verb form usually has an s on the end, so 'he needs', whereas second person does not ('you need').

So to confirm: using someone's official title is not the same as using the third person.

The third person refers to the pronoun and verb form.

From your example, OP: 'Cheers, driver' is not the third person. It's an implicit second person, although it has no verb form, because you are speaking directly to the driver.

No, it's a noun. I didn't suggest it was a pronoun.

Whenever I think of mum being used in the third person, it sounds condescending rather than polite e.g. How is mum getting on with the breastfeeding?

You did say it was third person though which it isn't in your example

Yes, no reason why in the example I gave they could not just say 'can you lift her arm up' . no need for 'mum' really

"Cheers" is just an informal way of saying thank you, which is basically "I thank you" (not "I thank him/her"); therefore second person, not third.

Or even "he/she thanks you" which is probably what I meant! I think...

"Cheers" in this context would be categorised as an interjection, not a noun or a verb.

(Sorry to be so nerdy. I'm a linguist and love this stuff.)

But yes, I fully agree with PP! @niadainud explained it better than me.

Thank you very much! ☺️

The best example I can think of in English of third person usage is in the formulation "your majesty" (or "your lord[lady]ship"). E.g. "Does your maj wish to ...." "Is your maj aware...?" "Which delicacy would your maj care to partake of first...?" I think feels like the speaker distancing him/herself from the supposed magnificent exaltedness of the person addressed.

I respect your realisation as to who runs your house!

My mum still does it!
But I’m not sure that actually answers your question!

Id probably do it if I had a formal printed invitation that was traditionally worded. Lots seem to write the names at the top and the printed bit says “you are invited.”

I've opened a lovely can of grammar worms, haven't I? And they say you don't know how to party as you approach 40!

I've enjoyed these clarifications, thank you. And PP who explained how Japanese uses the Third person (Mr Suzuki's pen) was lovely too.

WineIsMyCarb is grateful for all the poster's contributions, and wishes to express her thanks.

I am based in Switzerland - when German is being spoken at work it typically is Du internally, with clients/suppliers mostly it is Sie until someone makes the change. I find it amusing when dealing with family firms and they use Sie with their husbands wives and children!

As an English speaker, with good but imperfect German people are generally very polite when I mess it up.

A family member was a native Polish speaker, and I've heard disagreement about whether one would address their Babcia in the 3rd person (husband never did). I spoke decent French as a teenager but never had an office job in France - would you use tu or vous for your immediate boss these days? Big Director?

Bit of a muddle between informal vs formal and 2nd vs 3rd person here. You're right, Polish does indeed use the 3rd person singular combined with pan/pani as formal address. (Russian in contrast follows the French pattern of using the 2nd person plural, so ty vs vy.)

Hadn't given any thought to German, but yes, the formal address ("siezen") is indeed another 3rd person plural construction. Oddly enough, in times past German also used to have the polar opposite - the 3rd person singular ("erzen") used to address social interiors, so master to servant or sovereign to subject. So "Johann, spann er den Wagen an" (get the carriage ready.) That went out of fashion somewhere around the turn of the 19th century though, so you'll only encounter it in classical literature.

If it's a peer, after a while someone will say "can I say 'tu'?" And change the way they address each other. But I'm not Portuguese, so I don't know how long it takes to change pronouns usually. I guess not long if people are peers. Maybe longer if there's an age or status difference...

I find it interesting how most European languages have this marked difference between the informal second person (tu, du, tous, etc) and the formal third person (usted, die, vous, etc)

That's not third person!

Yes it is. The verb is 3rd person singular.

This is a great example! And is a (very rare) example in English of someone being addressed indirectly in the third person.

Whereas if you said, 'Would you like more tea, your Majesty?' that would be second person address.

I have a friend who always talks about another friend in third person. I think it's because she's unsure about which pronouns to use so she always uses their name.

e.g. "I think Willow is coming today. Willow said that Willow is going bring the picnic blanket and sandwiches"

etc.

I guess it's one way around the pronoun thing although it's a bit of a mouthful.

(Edit: Sorry, I just realised that grammatically this would be third person even if she used he/she/they - but I think it's still interesting so I'll leave it here!)

I assume you're taking to the person you're addressing, therefore it is 2nd person

Yes, if you're talking about someone it's the third person. I worked with students and they would often have preferred pronouns that went against what you'd assume so I'd often say "they". I sometimes got it wrong but luckily they were rarely in earshot and if they were I'd apologise straight away when I realised my error