Addressing someone in the 3rd person

[WineIsMyCarb]

Had a small glass of something and am idly wondering... which, if any, modern foreign languages still frequently use the 3rd person to address people formally, particularly at work.

In English we might address a taxi driver as "driver" ("cheers drive" if in Bristol, obvs), an MP with portfolio as Minister, a vicar as Reverend, Permanent Secretary, Headmaster, Chef, etc.

It's rare that I might he addressed as "madam".

A family member was a native Polish speaker, and I've heard disagreement about whether one would address their Babcia in the 3rd person (husband never did). I spoke decent French as a teenager but never had an office job in France - would you use tu or vous for your immediate boss these days? Big Director?

I understand Germans have always addressed colleagues as Mr/Mrs SoAnd So (Herr/Frau, etc - relying heavily on Year 9 German here!). Is that still true?

All clarifications and any other languages welcome!

No idea but I hope some others come along and shed light....

But what you're describing isn't addressing someone in the 3rd person?

That's not the third person.

First person is I
Second person is you
Third person is he, she, they.

You're talking about addressing people by their titles? Or possibly not??

That's usual in Portugal. For example someone would say: "what does the mother think?" When addressing the mother, instead of "what do you think?" (You, in this case, would be "tu" which is informal). Or using the name of the person (happens a lot in work situations).

Does the third person not include their title?
"Does the Prime Minister think the the current state of..." is the third person, surely? 🤔

Yes, in English I think we only use it when addressing someone by their title, but I suppose I was enquiring more generally about more formal styles of address.

So, which modern foreign languages still use more formal styles of address, such as the third person, job title or Mr/Mrs So-and-So ( rather than first names only, for example in a professional team environment) rather than the informal register that predominates in English?

Thank you @whatwouldlilacerullodo . So if you worked on a day to day basis with a peer, you'd still ask them "when will Inês send the report?" if it's the two of you as peers in conversation?

I think it's rather lovely!

I know you said "still", but Madame Bovary tells her young cook/housemaid to address her and her husband in the third person.

Yes you are right. Third person is simply a third person to the speaker and the person being spoken to.

(Though you do have to ignore that if someone adresses themselves in the third person it complicates that explanation!!)

Thanks @AnImaginaryCat . That reminds me that I was taught to reply to a wedding invitation in the third person!

So the posh card arrives on my mat: "Joanna's parents cordially invite Mr and Mrs Carb...." , so I'm obliged to respond
"Mr and Mrs Carb would be delighted to accept" etc.

Has that totally died out now?!

In Italian the polite form (like vous) is Lei (she) which you use for men and women. So you might say "Lei cosa preferisce mangiare?" (What do you prefer to eat but you are literally saying what does she prefer to eat?) I got completely tied in knots with this once as I was discussing a female colleague with my boss and he thought I was talking about him. 😄

Some people also refer to a group of people as Loro (they) when addressing them directly but that's a bit unusual these days!

Italians do third person when speaking to someone formally. I'm trying to learn, but can't get my head around it!
I always find it odd when people do 3rd person when speaking to school aged children.

And yes, it's commonly used in Italy at work and also in general. I use it with almost all my neighbours who are older than me (and I don't use their first name, I say Signora Rossi etc). As I have become older I have grown to like it more as a form!

I remember being referred to as 'mum' in medical settings when the kids were very young, eg 'mum can you just lift her arm' type of thing.

It didn't bother me. Made sense.

We use it all the time in this house.

"Would His Lordship like some Dreamies?"

German here:

My mum addresses her GP as Doktor Surname, the nurses in her carehome as first name and Sie. Any person she does not know personally like a shop assistant or waiter/waitress with Sie.

Up to 5-10 years ago, you would always use the formal Sie if you address anyone you don't know personally or only meet in a formal setting like GP, pastor, hairdresser, MP with Herr/Frau/Doktor and Sie. Even working together for years you wouldn't use automatically Du and first name until you come to some for of formal acknowledgement, traditionally triggered by the older/senior person offereing the Du.

Over time, especially in the media and advertising things started changing and the Du is used more common.

I work for a German company and my very formal old boss in Germany insisted on Frau Reluctantbrit's surname and Sie. Some mixed it like Reluctantbrit and Sie, especially when they used first name and you when speaking to us in English.

3 years ago he retired and his boss used the opportunity to offer us the Du (again, senior to junior position). During a restructuring the whole department is now on Firstname and Du, a huge step.

But I would never use the Du as a default when I am in Germany, I observe and see how people speak to others. We were in Berlin, admitting a more relaxed neighbourhood, and the waiter would use a Du/Ihr.

Saying that, in very rural areas the Sie was really reserved for people like GPs, pastors and officials, the man serving us at the bakery in Bavaria yesterday when straight to Du/Ihr.

Really interesting, thank you.

It's maybe a bit sad that it's becoming more informal @reluctantbrit.

Thank you Italians, really interesting to know. I don't speak a single word of Italian, so really interesting to hear how the language is structured.

Most latin based languages will be doing it and odds are it's still used,especially in professional settings. Rather than third person though, the respect thing is more a plural form of you(one person) , with the verbs following the plural pattern.

I find it funny that a lot of people will use madam/sir/doctor (sometimes both, yes my native language is confusing) even when the people they're talking about are not present and it's a very informal setting.

If my mum tells me a story about the doctor she used to work with it's still "Madam doctor so and so" . She's appalled I just call my boss Sarah .

In English we might address a taxi driver as "driver" ("cheers drive" if in Bristol, obvs), an MP with portfolio as Minister, a vicar as Reverend, Permanent Secretary, Headmaster, Chef, etc.

This is not the 3rd person. Your later example of "Does the Prime Minister think..." is indeed 3rd person, but calling a driver "driver" or a chef "chef" is not 3rd person.

Depends on the language - in Spanish, 3rd person conjugation is used. Same in Catalan.

Usage depends on the region, too. The formal usted is a lot more common in Latin America than in the Iberian Peninsula.

That's just using your role instead of your name, it's not third person. You can tell that by the use of the word "you"!

I have been thinking about this lately as well, weirdly. Forms like "would Sir like a drink" or "can I take madam's coat" in a posh restaurant for example. I think it's fascinating that English does have this very formal 3rd person form of address.
In French you use the plural form of you, but in very formal service settings like a posh restaurant you may also hear a 3rd person form of address like in English. ("Madame souhaiterait de l'eau?" Etc)

Spanish, Italian and Portuguese also use the 3rd person. Though I believe that "usted" in Spanish originally comes from
"Vuestra merced" which means "your mercy".

Romanian uses the plural you form like in French. But with the pronoun Dumneavoastra which originally meant "your lordship"...

Japanese does this - the words for “you” are a bit gruff unless you are on very familiar terms.

For example, at work, addressing Mr. Suzuki, rather than “Is this your pen?”, one would say “Is this Mr. Suzuki’s pen?”

"Mum" is using the third person. If a pronoun or a noun that reflects gender (masculine, feminine or neutral) is used then it is the third person.

In the sentence "Mum can you just lift her arm" is using mixed views. But that's fine, because it who is being spoken to in that case.

"Which side does Sir dress?" is the only example I can think of in English.

Mum isn't a pronoun if you're using it as someone's name, as you are on this example, and it's not third person either