Derry or Londonderry?

[TigerOnTour]

How controversial would it be if I used the wrong name and what is this city referred to in the North of Northern Ireland? The internet says that most unionists call it Londonderry and most nationalists call it Derry. Is this still accurate today? If you live there or nearby, what do you call it?

Did you go to school in Ireland? If you did didn't you learn about our history??

6 counties are NI.. part of the UK.. ROI 26 counties.. geographically 3 counties are in NI but part of the ROI

NI = 6 counties that are in the UK (Fermanagh, Armagh, Tyrone, Derry, Antrim, Down - FAT DAD or FAT LAD depending on where you were educated )

Ulster = a province of 9 counties (six in NI plus Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster

I was in my 40s when I learned that.

Ireland has 4 provinces, Ulster is the northern province, 3 of the counties in Ulster are in the ROI, 6 are in NI.

Thanks everyone 🙏

That's what I said 😆 I'm Irish

Yep, I just specified the province is Ulster, some thought Ulster meant NI.

Red faced raises hand .....

Ah ok thanks ☺️

Only the really rabid loyalists insist on Londonderry. Most reasonable people are happy with Derry, or Stroke City if you're trying to be amusing 😄
(I am from a family with the above-mentioned eejits)

It's got a lot of names - about 50 throughout history. Maiden City is one and Stroke City is another on account of the Derry-Londonderry thing.

It will really depend on who you're talking to, i.e., Republican & Nationalist or Loyalist & Unionist.

That said, both traditions have used both names in their history although many are actually unaware of this. E.g., commemorative silver teapot for Robert Emmet "Londonderry" and the Apprentice Boys "Derry".

Official name still remains Londonderry. Republicans & Nationalists lost a court case over this.

But I doubt anyone would be interested in beating you up for using what they might perceive as the wrong name from their own political perspective.

Unlike most of the posters here, I am from Northern Ireland. Catholic too and I mostly call it Londonderry.

BBC uses both, often alternately. You could do that yourself.

I did.
What do you think I don't know?

I've sometimes heard people saying 'North of Ireland' for NI, but I didn't realise saying it was so universally frowned upon until this thread. School didn't teach me that. That's the sort of thing I'm enquiring about.

My dad, who was born in 1924, was taken by his Presbyterian parents from Glasgow to Derry at the age of 2. He grew up in Derry with (obviously) Scottish Protestant parents. The religious differences in the region were so deeply ingrained in him, despite having no faith himself, that, at the end of his life, when living with dementia in a care home in England and no longer sure who I was, he could still always tell which carers were Catholic (they weren’t even Irish, it was just something he identified about people even when he couldn’t remember his own daughter’s name).

He never, ever called it Londonderry, that I can remember, always Derry. It’s certainly not a simple thing.

IME, the name people use for the county is split along political lines although there never was a County Derry before it became County Londonderry.

It was originally called County Coleraine. Should probably go back to that one.

Different situation to the name of the settlement.

That's not it.
Ulster has 9 counties but is divided between NI (6) and ROI (3).
However sometimes Unionists refer to NI as Ulster when in fact it's only part of Ulster.

Maybe you meant to say Ulster instead of the second NI there?

Visitors have no real reason to refer to Ulster, really. Unless they're talking about Ulster Rugby being fans of the sport.

Calling it Ulster v Ulster is a local population issue, but IME not a daily occurrence. Again, that's split along political lines and not geographic ones, i.e., Republicans & Nationalists use Ulster to refer to 9 Counties whereas Loyalists & Unionists use Ulster to refer to Northern Ireland.

Some examples of Ulster being used to refer or indicate Northern Ireland only:

Northern Ireland football team are known as the Ulster Boys. "Everywhere we go, it's the Ulster Boys making all the noise!" sung by NI fans.

Great Ulster Way only goes around Northern Ireland.

Ulster Bus, Ulster Hall, Ulster Hospital, Ulster Archaeological Society, Ulster Aviation Society, etc, are all Northern Ireland specific.

But I can't see why a visitor would be using Ulster in conversation with a local irrespective of political views. Its very much a local population thing.

I sometimes call Northern Ireland "Ulster" and sometimes describe my identity as Ulster-British to an outsider.

See I didn't learn that in school either!
Never knew that.
It's taught as Co Derry in ROI 🤔

Thank you for the explanation, very interesting.

Oh, another fact I learned at the same time was the most northern part of the Island of Ireland is actually part of the Republic of Ireland in county Donegal.

The original settlement of Doire burnt down, IIRC correctly accidentally. The new settlement wasn't built on the site of the old one and acquired its name from London Guild companies.

As you can see on CAIN, there isn't really a historical dispute over the name. It looks like a Troubles era argument which isn't really surprising.

This is from Irish historian Brian Lacey who hails from Dublin and found on CAIN:

"I am not sure at what point the use of the alternate names Derry or Londonderry became a badge of political identity. Clearly, things have always been a bit more fluid than all sides give credit for. For instance, in the Tower Museum (actually in glass cases opposite each other) there are two objects which, as it were, give the lie to the 'official' versions.

In one case there is a rule book of the loyalist Apprentice Boys of Derry. It uses the name Derry throughout, and the name Londonderry never appears at all. In the other case, there is a small souvenir teapot, dated 1898, commemorative of the 1798 Rebellion and of the nationalist hero Robert Emmet. On the reverse of this clearly republican artifact is the inscription "a present from Londonderry".

https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/issues/segregat/temple/discus1.htm

He's correct that things are more fluid than many would be aware of, including those from the Republic as well as outsiders.

That doesn't surprise me.

Have a look at the CAIN link on the issue of the name. It'll at least give you food for thought. Lots of different names throughout history, but Derry-Londonderry name dispute is very much a Troubles era thing.

Any dispute will ebb and flow somewhat along with political disputes. Troubles era - dispute over the name would be acute, but in 2024? Not so much, but still unwise to deliberately provoke someone over it regardless of your political views.

I agree that "North of Ireland" is far more loaded than "Derry" or "Londonderry".

Better to call it "Northern Ireland" and if anyone has a problem with it...well, the Belfast Agreement refers to Northern Ireland 142 times from start to finish.

"North of Ireland? 0.

Thanks for the information and the link @DownNative.

No problem.

If yourself, the OP @TigerOnTour or anyone else wants a good place to start on place-names in Ulster, you could begin with Jonathan Bardon's book attached. It's not an overwhelming book and is thin, but it still has a good amount of information on old names in Gaelic, meaning and corresponding modern name today.

As Jonathan's wife says in her foreword:

"Reputed for a balanced approach in his many books, it was always an aim of Jonathan to show the reader that the people of this divided province have a shared past and the community divisions are not based on genes - we are not simply Planter and Gael. He frequently pointed out that family names in Ulster indicate considerable intermarriage between the communities in the past, and that place names show the widespread distribution of migrants to Ulster over many centuries. This book, explaining the Irish Celtic (Gaelic), Viking, Anglo-Norman and Plantation roots of many of our familiar Ulster place names, most certainly illustrates his point."

My copy. 👇