The truth about immigrants and housing shortage

[Strawbal]

What is the truth? Is the country housing immigrants at the cost of our own housing crisis?

I'm bombarded with many differing viewpoints (on this and many issues) and I can’t sort the wheat from the chaff

Your response to my OP indicates you believe my question was disingenuous and something of a racist dog whistle. Presumably you can now see that’s not the case. In taking the approach you did, you sought to stamp out genuine discourse and understanding when there is clearly a discussion to be had, and a complex one. Some people will take badly to that. Mindless brick throwing thugs don’t think about anything at all, but there is wave of moderate people who, in relation to many things including housing, feel “enough is enough” for all the well reasoned explanations and opinions expressed on this thread.

We seem to have loads of moths flitting around

New Next door have Astro turf and concrete 😕

House Used to have a pond and grass

None of this building is helping the environment and it isn't good

Also the more migrants we have, the more we need more doctors, nurses, school places, dentists etc so it is never ending

I totally agree about upskilling dc here. They did want good opportunities and they should be our priority

Also why did the government remove the bursaries for health care students

This... 100%... UK needs immigration given the capitalist model needs constant growth to survive. After the first generation, immigrant families usually blend in anyway. Sometimes it takes longer e.g. where I grew up in Bradford in 1970s, integration was a problem and remained so up to when my family moved away in 2000. My own wider family all immigrated in the 1890s and tbh their contribution to the UK has been considerable.

The tension over housing is real but its f*ed up government policy that's responsible, not refugees, who are being scapegoated. As has been said, if they're allowed to work, they will be net contributors.

This is very true. RtB was ended in Scotland in 2012. But the stock transfer took place in 2003, well before that.

There is shitloads of data.

I'm bored this morning so so just spent a while messing around with the census data. In 2021 on census day 66% of people living in social housing (includes council and HA) had a British passport. 26% had no passport and given they are here and in a council house are probably british.

Give me a few hours and I can probably get refugee figures out...

www.ons.gov.uk/census

My motivation for posting was one of genuine education. I’m surrounded by the left, the right and the middle and where I stand isn’t always clear cut.

Last week a work colleague who is well educated and respected said that her partner in an educational role been involved in briefings after the Southport stabbings and it was confirmed the killer was an adult pretending to be 17, and other “facts”. We now know none of these are true. So even respected sources get it wrong/get sucked in.

This post was to understand the reality of the housing crisis away from rhetoric of the right and the sometimes head burying of the left. Neither approach gets us anywhere.

indeed - I fully appreciate my privilege in never having to worry about housing. I would also say that we need to acknowledge the different types of migration. I’m from a country where there is free travel between the UK and here so lots of British people come and live here too. The governments of the respective countries made that agreement and people from both countries use it. It can’t be that British people are ex-pats when they go live elsewhere (In houses no less!!) and everyone else is an immigrant.

So must we give up holidays to accommodate itinerants fro around the world? Is that what you would prefer?

Yep
All of this

@WhereIsMyLight: Immigration is a very small piece of the overall problem that has been growing for 30-40 years.

A small part? That is not true. Build a city the size of Swindon or Coventry every year to house the incomers. NOT FAIR on us.

Existing holiday accommodation such as hotels and B&Bs isn’t included in the data I have been looking at.

But the increase to c. 9000 (2019) whole dwellings (flats or houses) for short term let on AirBnB / Expedia in Edinburgh has come from what was previously -or could be - longer term housing stock, which hits all those wanting to live locally.

Apologies to Edinburgh locals for oversimplification or misrepresentation - I’m relying on a reading of published data rather than in-depth research.

See this adds another layer to the argument that lack of housing is not solely or primarily due to immigration.
The number of people attending university has increased over the last thirty or so years.
These people need accommodation. There is a shortage of student accommodation.
Landlords are making a small fortune renting out rooms . A three bedroomed terrace house will be turned into a five bedroomed student house as the landlord will turn the dining room and sitting room into bedrooms to maximise the profit.
They would rather rent to students than families
People need to stop blaming immigrants as there are various factors that contribute to the lack of housing

Agree, Lampzade. Similarly, many other issues that some may claim are due to immigrants - pressure on the NHS / schools / councils; unemployment - are all complex and multi-factorial.

Which raises the question of why some people are choosing to oversimplify? What are the agendas at play here? Is it more acceptable to blame migrants - or a specific subset of migrants - than to look at other factors at play? Why?

There are several issues that become conflated, but need to be separated. I live in an area where there has been rioting against 'illegals', what they actually mean is non white people. We desperately need immigrants, at a recent hospital admission the whole floor of doctors and nurses were either Indian or Filipino, recruited in due to shortages. We had a new African looking family in our school last year. They look quite humble in terms of dress/car/housing and the assumption was they were asylum seekers. It only transpired at the end of the year that the father is a vascular surgeon and mother is a cancer researcher, both recruited in. A lot of non white, fairly newcomers are doing the caring jobs that locals don't want either. It is entirely the government's fault if this very much needed recruitment is causing a housing shortage.
We are a fairly MC family, who have privately rented for 20 years. This year we became statutory homeless after our LL sold the house. I've viewed about 50 properties, and have never seen a non white viewer (the 'illegals' are being blamed for competition in rental sector). An estate agent told me the pressure is caused not by immigration, but a lack of starter homes being built. Most new builds are 3+ beds, and first time buyers cannot afford them so are now renting instead. There are 1 and 2 bed apartments being built, but 'locals' are very reluctant to buy apartments apparently, they are not viewed as a good asset.
People like me (who can afford rent) are now going into the statutory homeless category, simply because there aren't enough rental properties,which obviously puts greater pressure on housing lists. I've joined some Facebook groups for council/social housing swaps, and the entitlement is unreal, and they are simultaneously blaming 'foreigners' for "getting everything". These people don't seem to understand that when you are awarded a 2 bed house, then go onto have 3 dc that this results in overcrowding. They seem to think this is against their human rights and they should get a new house with an extra bedroom every time they have a child. Lots of older people underoccupying social housing as well, but don't want to leave them as "I raised my family here" and they want a bungalow (which they don't build now, it's only apartments).

What I’ve learnt recently it’s a pyramid scheme:

Welcome immigrants over to do minimum wage jobs that the current population refuse to do for minimum wage. Expect them to tolerate living in poverty and have lots of children. Hope those children will tolerate the same lifestyle, if not open the boarders further to continue the circle.

I do wonder why MPs get paid so much. We could save the tax payer a fortune if we only paid them minimum wage. Same with all professions.

Oh wait, it’s only teachers, social workers, junior doctors, nurses we expect to essentially live just about the bread line in shit conditions but that’s ok, we’ll advertise the role in the global south.

Grandparents selling their house to pay ££££ a week for care? Who cares if their carers barely speak a word of English. Should be thankful they’re having three meals a day. Lazy native population not wanting to wipe shit and deal with physical abuse for minimum wage when they can put their feet up and stack the shelves in Tesco. Allow Tesco to recruit from abroad and our food shopping prices will be slashed….

Unskilled jobs that the businesses are ran like something based out of dickens. Turn up to the warehouse work not knowing if you’re going to have any hours that day? Roll call at 5am on the farm to hear what shift you’re on for the day? That’s alright, that’s just for uneducated and the stupid, should be thankful to have any work. Uneducated, local accent and wears a tracksuit? Thugs, the lot of them. If they bothered to turn up every day, refuse to form a union and had a rota for their mattress which they shared with their mates, they could also be in work too.

Protesters in Harehills: that’s the melting pot of living in poverty. Riots by those wearing too tight leggings and face tattoos? Thugs: should have their benefits stopped and thrown into prison - said the same person who sympathised with the Harehill residents. Anyone who called from the Harehill residents to be imprisoned or benefits stopped ‘racist’.

Chavs having kids whilst having to rely on government hand outs? Should keep their legs closed until they can afford to keep them. Working six days a week, relying on food banks… should be thankful to have a roof over your head and some baked beans thrown your way.

But hey, complain about it or dare to vote against having essentially open boarders you’re a racist. Don’t deserve to be treated on the NHS. Moan about immigration and say ‘it’s not all foreigners but…’ YOU UNEDUCATED RACIST DON’T YOU UNDERSTAND WE NEED HARDWORKING IMMIGRANTS/THEY DESERVE THE SAME OPPORTUNITIES AS YOU.

It’s all a bit lower class to question immigration. But hey, it’s completely acceptable to be anti working class/underclass. scoffs only if those thugs understood if they worked harder and organised protests with the other groups living in poverty, they might actually get somewhere. Taking to the streets in anger is never going to get any sympathy. Deport them to Rwanda and we’ll replace them with people that will be thankful to live in the slums.

Here large numbers of the Dr's, nurses, dentists, and many teachers are the migrants. We'd be rather stuffed without their skills and care.

Yes I realise that but also we have unskilled people who are not needed in the same way

The care industry, rubbish handling industry, cleaning industry, supermarket stockers, packers, and many many others that the British don't seem keen to work in, might disagree with you there. There's an awful lot of unskilled jobs especially with unsocial hours, looking for workers here.

But many of them will also bring in family members who are not necessarily doctors, nurses, dentists, or teachers. And whether they are or not, they too will need the services of doctors, nurses, dentists and possibly teachers. Plus emergency services, water, waste collection, sewage disposal, public transport, road maintenance, park maintenance etc etc. Not to mention housing. We need to be creating the employees we need from the population we have, that's the only possible solution long-term. Single immigrants who marry into the existing population would be a compromise, but moving in entire families and taking on all of the associated costs of keeping them just for the benefit of one skilled worker is plainly unsustainable. If they don't get ill or have an accident etc, they will only offer a few decades work at most before retiring and then expecting us to fund their retirement with all the additional expenses - and workers - that involves.

In my council estate unemployment is a generational issue. Entire families seem destined to live off the state and they are exclusively white families.

Unless they all have night shift jobs , the estate is buzzing throughout the day. Mobility scooters wrapped in England flags galore 🤣 And no, the mobility scooters are not owned by disabled people and yes I’m aware not all disabilities are visible.

Modern Britain is a sight to behold.

See, I don't find that funny. I find it sad. And I find it intolerable that
generations of people have been ignored, mocked and betrayed by both the government and the public. I believe it is our country's duty to support and to educate her people, and to help them to live their best lives. I believe we have utterly failed in this duty. No wonder they are vulnerable to anyone who will notice them without sneering at them. There really is great irony in their attachment to the England flag.

It is a very complicated issue. On the asylum seeker issue it is the length of time it takes and the appeals process that is part of the problem. If we decided within a week and returned the people at end of the week the issue would go away. It annoys most people that tax payers are paying to keep people in hotels the tax payer could not afford. The sums paid by the state are eye watering and having guarantee 100% occupancy a huge temptation for many hotel owners.

More generally we have never had such high gross and net immigration in the Uk ever in our entire history - we are very very popular. People love the UK. We have about 1.2m immigration (and about 640k net immigration) a year. We have 18m more people than when I was born here in England.

The impact for the rich is their workers are cheaper and they can get servants in effect even if in 2024 that means a very cheap delivery driver who is an illegal subcontracted by a legitimate person with a delivery account. For the poor having to live in areas "taken over" can be a very negative experience as people have explained on MN for lots of reasons. Even just things like double parking, standard of driving, obeying the law, litter, noise, sexism, lack of tolerance for gay people, caste systems, - all things people here for generations get wrong at times but which are sometimes much worse because some newcomers have different customs.

The country from which an immigrant comes can determine whether they will be a net contributor or a net taker. The BBC said on a UCL study

"Those from the European Economic Area (EEA - the EU plus Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein) had made a particularly positive contribution in the decade up to 2011, contributing 34% more in taxes than they received in benefits.
Immigrants from outside the EEA contributed 2% more in taxes than they received in the same period, the report showed.
Over the same period, British people paid 11% less in tax than they received.
Despite the positive figures in the decade since the millennium, the study found that between 1995 and 2011, immigrants from non-EEA countries claimed more in benefits than they paid in taxes, mainly because they tended to have more children than native Britons.
The report also showed that in 2011, 32% of recent EEA immigrants and 43% of non-EEA immigrants had university degrees, compared with 21% of the British adult population." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24813467

This is a problem with capitalism and the desire for constant growth. Theoretically it would be great if you could create those workers from the existing population, but it isn't happening, and the jobs still need doing.

runrabbitruns posted immediately after you:
In my council estate unemployment is a generational issue. Entire families seem destined to live off the state and they are exclusively white families.

Exactly the same here on my SH version, with one exception and they are a mum and daughter with learning difficulties. There's work a plenty here, they don't want it.