My teenage son is too right-wing

[outdamnedspots]

We talk a lot about crime and politics at home.

Ds 17 has picked up that a lot of crime is committed by immigrants and people who are not-white, and us getting far too right-wing for my taste. He sounds awful, really racist.

What can I say to him to combat his thoughts?

Some of his views: immigrants commit a disproportionate amount of crime.

There's too much immigration.

Prisoners should not have their jail sentences cut to avoid overcrowding in prisons.

Prisons should be a deterrent first and foremost, not a chance for rehabilitation.

Rehabilitation of most prisoners, eg paedophiles, doesn't happen.

That's what I have been trying to do: give reasons why eg black youth get involved in gangs. But his views are quite black and white.

I think facts are the way to go, but you will probably be uncomfortable at some point because some communities do have a problem. It’s not racist to point out that forced marriage happens in this community or FGM is more likely to occur in that community. I was listening to an interview with an ex-muslim the other day, she’s been sent to pakistan to be married off a as a teenager. She made the point that well meaning people often hold people they deem to be minorities to a lower standard and it just allows the continued abuse of women and children and prevents integration.

I would also point out the ethnic minorities he’s come across that are examples of well integrated people. The doctors, or maybe your neighbours etc. there are actually statistics out there on things like education levels by ethnicity, average earnings by ethnicity which clearly point to successfully integrated people who are doing well and a net positive for society. Always use actual evidence because otherwise your argument will sound empty.

Definitely explain algorithms, I opened a couple of posts on twitter from american white supremacists on twitter (out of curiosity) I’m now bombarded with white supremacy content 🤦🏽‍♀️. I managed to get it a bit cleared up but then stupidly opened one from an evangelical ethno nationalist who seems to want a theocracy aaaand back to square one. This is where curiosity gets you.

You can tell him about the black doctor at GOSH, who was top of his game, you know treating very ill children all day.

Bought himself a new car, a nice one, why not.
He got stopped 42 times in two months. Because police questioned why did someone who looked like him have a car like that.

It became too much he was spending all his days off going to police stations to hand in papers etc.

So he sold it and got an old banger.

This is what perceived racism does, makes GOSH doctors drive shit cars. After the days they have why shouldn't they be able to drive home in comfort and peace?

And dumb fucks feeding into to small percentage of ethnic criminals feed this monster.

The rick, pale, stale males at the top of political and media power want you to think that all your problems are poor brown people's fault not one of the handful of individuals that own more wealth than half the GLOBAL population.

Tell him to check his sources and then question why they would want you to think that.

I'd tell him he's free to think whatever he likes, but I'm too old and I've seen too much shit to have to listen to what sounds to me like ignorant, racist bullshit.

I don't think I'd even bother trying to educate him. I just wouldn't give it air time.

Umm... I think a lot of people would agree with most, if not all, of his points. (I can't comment on the first one as the data simply isn't available.)

Not surprised you're struggling to counter them, OP!

This is a real problem with teenagers, particularly boys I am finding. I teach secondary. Nigel Farage is becoming an almost Trump-esque type character where they think he’s slightly silly but also a man of the people.sigh

I think the best way to combat it is to come at him with facts and counter arguments to his view. It will not take much unpicking as it’s based on right-wing trope. Show him the crime statistics for England and Wales. What kinds of crime is he talking about? Ask him who he means when he is saying immigrants? I bet it isn’t Australians or Canadians. Ask him how many immigrants he knows. Ask him if he knows how illegal immigration is different to legal immigration.

Show him positive examples of immigration. Talk to him about public services and some of the real reasons why you can’t get GP appointments. Speak to him about the dangers of “othering” and how it is okay to feel suspicious or even concerned but it is not okay to constantly blame all of societies issues on one particular group of people. Basically have open and honest discussions where you let him speak but you’re prepared with counter arguments. If you just shut him down and tell him it’s daft it plays into the hands of right wing thinking as we are all just “wokes” or “liberal lefties” who don’t have a clue.

These are not extreme right wing views. They are held by a lot of people if all voting persuasions ( left and right). It’s true that our prison system is woefully bad at rehabilitation and they letting people out of prison early because of overcrowding is indicative of a failed system. Perhaps tell him the Tories allowed 17 prisons to be closed to save money. Rehabilitation also costs money and its benefits are hard to measure, so rarely receives the investment it needs to succeed. Honestly though, crime snd punishment shouldn’t occupy so much headspace for him. Rather than tell him he’s wrong, maybe try to fill the space with something else. Is there a hobby he would like to take up for example?

Literally none of these are inherently “wrong” or even really right-wing. Of course, I’m biased as someone who identifies as right-wing, but I come from a family (Jamaican immigrant grandparents) where none of my beliefs are abnormal. My husband is fully white British and his parents are of an age where they were pushing back against bigoted elders in their youth and see tolerance as the highest of all virtues. If his parents had taken any sort of hard line in “combating” his conservative beliefs when he was a teenager, it wouldn’t have changed his mind, just alienated him from them. Now they have a great relationship despite their differing views, it rarely comes up besides when an extremist open borders aunt is present, and they can lightheartedly rib each other on their opposed views. (We are both gen z like your son, aged 22 and 26.)

This is so depressing! We know that one of the primary risk factors for involvement in crime is poverty/deprivation. We also know that ethnic minorities are more likely to be impacted. https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/work-pay-and-benefits/pay-and-income/low-income/latest/ I don't have the figures to hand for the whole of the UK but I know that 85% of individuals mapped as involved in serious organised crime in Scotland are white British. I'm willing to bet that if you were to map involvement in crime by area of low income you would get a far stronger correlation. I don't know how you persuade a teenager to agree with their parents, - my aim would be toqke sure that facts quoted in debate were accurate and not cherry picked. However I would also be saying that I expect people with hard line views on crime and criminals not to consume the products of organised crime. So no illegal drugs (of any description) no bootleg films/music/illegal streaming service, no counterfeit goods, no buying knock-offs etc etc

I mean he's technically right. Counties with largely homogeneous populations have the lowest crime rates whereas those with high levels of immigration have higher levels of crime. There are other factors of course, such as population numbers/poverty.

I was at uni with a black man who was constantly late and often his excuse was he had been stopped by police on the way in! He was driving his dads car and it was a nice one. Such an education for the class that!

I agree with all of that.

I don't have the figures to hand for the whole of the UK but I know that 85% of individuals mapped as involved in serious organised crime in Scotland are white British.

So under represented then given 96% of the Scottish population is white (at the last census).

That doesn’t disaggregate asian or mixed. You’ll find some groups are wealthier than others, most likely due to female participation in the workforce. Some groups are doing better than white people.

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/work-pay-and-benefits/pay-and-income/household-income/latest/

The picture is not straightforward when it comes to crime, poverty and ethnicity. I imagine 2 income households and female participation in the workforce do better than others.

These aren’t extreme views. In fact, they aren’t even necessarily right wing views - lots of traditionally left leaning / socialist people believe that immigration should be reduced, because an increase in the supply of labour reduces the bargaining power of the working class for better pay & conditions.

To go through each point:

1. “Immigrants commit a disproportionate amount of crime” - in the uk, we do not keep publicly available data on the migrant status of criminals. However, we do have the data on ethnicity: 71.8% of prisoners are white, compared to 81.7% of the uk population who are white. This shows that ethnic minorities are indeed over-represented in prisons, which I suspect is what most people are actually referring to when they talk about crime committed by immigrants. There is of course a discussion to be had about why this is - perhaps ethnic minorities are more likely to live in poverty and turn to crime, perhaps ethnic minorities are more likely to be suspected by police, etc, but whatever the reason, the statistics are quite stark.

2. “There's too much immigration” - over 1.2 million people were given UK visas last year, resulting in a net increase of over 600,000 people to the population. Many people believe that this is an unsustainable level of immigration, and that our services and infrastructure cannot keep pace with this rate of change. Having the opinion that this number is too high does not make your son an extremist, or even right wing - the majority of people believe it is too high.

3. “Prisoners should not have their jail sentences cut to avoid overcrowding in prisons” - again, this is a very common opinion, I would wager that most people are unhappy about criminals having their sentences unduly reduced.

4. “Prisons should be a deterrent first and foremost, not a chance for rehabilitation” - and again, this is a very commonly held opinion, one which many people on different ends of the political spectrum would agree with. Lots of people believe it is more effective to scare people off from doing crime in the first place, rather than try to reshape the personalities of criminals.

5. “Rehabilitation of most prisoners, eg paedophiles, doesn't happen” - this is simply a fact. Paedophiles in particular do have astonishingly high re-offending rates.

Of course prisons should offer a chance of rehabilitation. It would cut repeat offending. And not all criminals are pedophiles.

And I have no issue with non violent offenders being released early.

Teenage girls spend too long on TikTok too - often being marketed to about 1 m tweakments they should have, products they should use, ways they can improve themselves. It's savage.

I wish I could give my kids the 90s teenage years I had.

Mine was like that too. Now hes a proper leftie
Hes rebelling against your views as all teens do

Ask him what he thinks rhe solution is...when he gives an̈ answer ask him how and why thats what he thinks

Don't tell him he's wrong. Ask him significant questions make him explain his views

The word 'racist' is rather meaningless; it has been so overused to shut down discussion about clear and present issues.

Amusingly, I work with someone who you'd squeal 'racist!' -about. He's very anti (Muslim) immigration; sees articles about riots in Leeds, bodies in burnt out cars in Malmo, and immediately 'draws conclusions', he'd tow small-boats back out to sea, and actively supports Reform, Tommy Robinson and the EDL.

He's 100% Filipino. It isn't just white people who are tired of the mantra that there's no problem, therefore nothing to solve.

Whilst my work colleague is evidently right-wing, could you call him racist?

For millennia young people have wanted to rebel against the "establishment" which effectively means the accepted views of the media, Government, etc.

Now that the "establishment " is left wing (BBC, MN, etc) it is no surprise that young people rebel by becoming more right wing.

I agree with the suggestion of buying a newspaper which is likely to offer a different view.

The Guardian and Observer would be suitable.

To be honest, at 17, his views are likely to be fledgling views; there's a good possibility that his views will change over the next few years.

Don't argue with him, this will only reinforce his views. My DS comes out with some rubbish sometimes and DH goes on a rant and they end up having a blazing row. Both as bad as each other.

I've developed a way of listening to DS without reaction and then saying 'that's fair enough if you believe that but personally I think..'. We end up having much more open discussions then and I hope some of my views trickle through. Or if not the idea of open discussion is accepted more. Sometimes watching TV together especially the news helps to open discussions, or watching a movie. The problem is DS doesn't want to do these things very often so it's hard.

It's these bloody algorithms, their minds are being warped. Instead of being angry at vulnerable teenagers we should be angry at these massively wealthy tech giants whose goal it is to make our kids more addicted. If you are continually reading a worldview you will believe it. Educate him on how it works and why he is just a pawn in the grand scheme of it all. Help him develop a cynical and critical view point. Also i think sometimes discussions about issues such as immigration are shut down too quickly as someone shouts racism so the young person doesn't get the chance to rationalise things or educate themselves.

Just to add, DH and I now get newspapers delivered the old fashioned way. We leave them on the kitchen counter open in the hope our kids accidentally read something!