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The Guardian today on the safety of the Lucy Letby convictions

1000 replies

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/07/2024 08:40

This article was apparently months in the making but it was delayed by the reporting restrictions https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/jul/09/lucy-letby-evidence-experts-question

“A Guardian investigation has interviewed dozens of these experts and seen further evidence from emails and documents. Those raising concerns include several leading consultant neonatologists, some with current or recent leadership roles, and several senior neonatal nurses. Others are public health professionals, GPs, biochemists, a leading government microbiologist, and lawyers. Several of those still working in the NHS have asked to remain anonymous, fearing the impact if they are named.

These experts said they were acutely aware of the suffering of the families involved and did not want to reopen their trauma, but were so troubled they felt compelled to become involved”

OP posts:
Thread gallery
31
Mollypolly45 · 10/07/2024 09:26

Tinylittleunicorn · 10/07/2024 09:04

You entire analysis (and that of the article you have cited) is flawed because this simply is not how the case against LL was built nor prosecuted. Likewise the telegraph here is referring to these presumed deaths when LL was not present but at no point clearly establishes that they occurred(!!!). That LL was absent from these deaths appears to be a presumption based on nothing more than their absence from the table - a presumption which has gained traction in the press only because of how many times it has been repeated.

You are very successfully deconstructing a strawman. I believe that you're doing so in good faith and I'm not trying to be unpleasant but this isn't something I can constructively engage with.

Right - I’ll explain this as simply as possible.

If a data set only includes all the times a phenomenon happened…

And none of the times the phenomenon didn’t happen…

You cannot accurately estimate the probability of the phenomenon happening.

If I flip a coin 100 times…

And only record the number of times it lands on heads…

And ignore the number of times it lands on tails…

It would not be accurate for me to conclude that the coin always lands on heads.

I would be a terrible statistician cherry picking data.

But this is exactly my point with the shift data.

Only the cases of collapse/death with Letby present were recorded.

The cases of collapse/death with Letby absent have not been recorded.

Therefore, it cannot be concluded that Letby caused all collapses/deaths on the ward.

Tinylittleunicorn · 10/07/2024 09:29

This is not a case of "everybody speculating" and 50:50 which way the speculation goes.

LL has been convicted after a lengthy and thorough police investigation followed by a lengthy and thorough due legal process. If doubts about the outcome of this process are to be taken seriously they should be backed by some serious factual evidence not just presumptions, faux-statistics (the irony), guesses and speculation.

Otherwise you are just conducting your own "trial by social media" and expecting that to have the same standing as an actual trial conducted by expert professionals.

placemats · 10/07/2024 09:31

I look forward to reading Dr Phil Hammond's article in the next edition of Private Eye. It was written last September but publication was delayed because of the new trial.

Freespeechisvital · 10/07/2024 09:43

Initially none of the deaths were thought to be suspicious by the pathologists doing the post mortems

This is something that has been troubling me.

The pathologists who found zero evidence of anything suspicious and initially attributed the baby deaths to other causes, presuming multiple pathologists not one,are their other cases being questioned and investigated?

It's their job to be completely impartial and investigate the cause of death.
I find it astonishing that none of the babies deaths were attributed to air embolism initially and then suddenly they were.

As a HCP it's not unknown for air embolism to occur either accidentally via poor practice or a degraded line or during resuscitation.
It was known that at least 2 of the babies had multiple failed line insertions by junior staff on the unit, one had a difficult chest drain insertion and yet it wasn't picked up or questioned that this could be the cause?

I've worked with many medical staff over the years and they usually go out of their way to shift the blame elsewhere and cover their own arses!
They simply won't admit to issues and I think this is a collective cognitive dissonance at play.

There were serious issues with medical staffing and skill mix
There were serious issues with nurse staffing and skill mix
Although the unit was level 2 , very prem and unwell babies were being cared for on the unit and nationally there was a huge shortage of Neonatal beds which would prevent babies being cared for in an appropriate environment.

The fact that there was no one on duty who could successfully intubate a neonate is catastrophic IMHO and shows how poorly the unit was being run.

Mollypolly45 · 10/07/2024 09:44

Tinylittleunicorn · 10/07/2024 09:29

This is not a case of "everybody speculating" and 50:50 which way the speculation goes.

LL has been convicted after a lengthy and thorough police investigation followed by a lengthy and thorough due legal process. If doubts about the outcome of this process are to be taken seriously they should be backed by some serious factual evidence not just presumptions, faux-statistics (the irony), guesses and speculation.

Otherwise you are just conducting your own "trial by social media" and expecting that to have the same standing as an actual trial conducted by expert professionals.

Dude, chill for a minute and take a breath.

You’re welcome to your own opinions you’ve shared.

I’m welcome to mine.

At the end of the day, we’re both sat here speculating about a case on social media.

Neither of us are experts.

I’m saying the opinion of some experts trouble me and the safety of the case needs to be looked at again.

You originally questioned where Statistician in the Telegraph article got the calculation of 9 other deaths from.

I offered to provide some possible clarification but now we’re both hurdling like Alice down a rabbit hole with this.

I respectfully have a different interpretation and, like you, have some speculation thrown into the mix too.

I wish you a good day.

Tessisme · 10/07/2024 09:52

*The cases of collapse/death with Letby absent have not been recorded.

Therefore, it cannot be concluded that Letby caused all collapses/deaths on the ward.*

Perhaps the other deaths were verifiable as not involving Letby because there were other witnesses, so not JUST Letby in the room. BTW this is just me wondering and not saying that this is necessarily the correct/most impartial way in which to present the information about shifts. I am all for examining inconsistencies that may have come to light because miscarriages of justice do happen, as we all know.

Tinylittleunicorn · 10/07/2024 09:57

Mollypolly45 · 10/07/2024 09:44

Dude, chill for a minute and take a breath.

You’re welcome to your own opinions you’ve shared.

I’m welcome to mine.

At the end of the day, we’re both sat here speculating about a case on social media.

Neither of us are experts.

I’m saying the opinion of some experts trouble me and the safety of the case needs to be looked at again.

You originally questioned where Statistician in the Telegraph article got the calculation of 9 other deaths from.

I offered to provide some possible clarification but now we’re both hurdling like Alice down a rabbit hole with this.

I respectfully have a different interpretation and, like you, have some speculation thrown into the mix too.

I wish you a good day.

Here it comes. The point at which there is nothing further to say, so your last word is to attempt to patronise me with the insinuation that I am emotional and you are calm 🙄

Mollypolly45 · 10/07/2024 09:58

Reallybadidea · 10/07/2024 07:45

I agree, but it doesn't sound like other experts are convinced that it would even cause respiratory collapse, they argued that the babies would simply burp it out. I've seen (accidental) oesophageal intubation a number of times in adults where quite large volumes of gas are injected and it does tend to just come straight out again.

I totally agree with this - it gets burped out.

Having worked with NGs and PEGs, the stomach let’s out excess gas easily.

The syringes on Neonatal are also absolutely tiny.

It would involve someone removing and filling the syringe with air many times to pump enough air into the stomach via the NG.

The width of the NG tube would have also been absolutely tiny.

It’s not quick or easy to push a lot of air through a tiny tube with a tiny syringe.

In cases where babies cannot breathe due to stomachs over inflated with air, it is almost always caused by intubation tubes being incorrectly placed in the oesophagus and delivering a continuous flow of air.

dougalfromthemagicroundabout · 10/07/2024 10:07

Freespeechisvital · 10/07/2024 09:43

Initially none of the deaths were thought to be suspicious by the pathologists doing the post mortems

This is something that has been troubling me.

The pathologists who found zero evidence of anything suspicious and initially attributed the baby deaths to other causes, presuming multiple pathologists not one,are their other cases being questioned and investigated?

It's their job to be completely impartial and investigate the cause of death.
I find it astonishing that none of the babies deaths were attributed to air embolism initially and then suddenly they were.

As a HCP it's not unknown for air embolism to occur either accidentally via poor practice or a degraded line or during resuscitation.
It was known that at least 2 of the babies had multiple failed line insertions by junior staff on the unit, one had a difficult chest drain insertion and yet it wasn't picked up or questioned that this could be the cause?

I've worked with many medical staff over the years and they usually go out of their way to shift the blame elsewhere and cover their own arses!
They simply won't admit to issues and I think this is a collective cognitive dissonance at play.

There were serious issues with medical staffing and skill mix
There were serious issues with nurse staffing and skill mix
Although the unit was level 2 , very prem and unwell babies were being cared for on the unit and nationally there was a huge shortage of Neonatal beds which would prevent babies being cared for in an appropriate environment.

The fact that there was no one on duty who could successfully intubate a neonate is catastrophic IMHO and shows how poorly the unit was being run.

This is a really important post and shows how so much has been swept under the carpet because Letby was convicted, and there is no accountability for lack of proper safeguarding or failures of NHS management.

I don't know if anyone's mentioned the Lucia de Berk case - convicted of murder, conviction upheld on appeal but then it was determined she was not guilty.

I'm not saying that Letby is innocent, I'm saying that it is possible for nurses to be wrongly convicted based on flawed interpretation of the data and circumstantial evidence. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucia_de_Berk_case

It's an interesting case.

Assuming Letby is guilty I still feel very strongly she should not have been left in post as long as she was. So those latter deaths are really the responsibility of the hospital management. The point of safeguarding, the point of risk management is to ensure that if there are any suggested serious risks you minimise the damage they can do. They abjectly failed at this.

Managers did not take an approach which prioritised baby safety. I have no doubt this was due to other failures in the way the hospital and unit was run. Managers in the NHS have to start facing criminal responsibility when such things happen or we may as well kiss the NHS goodbye IMO. They are paid vast salaries, far higher than the nurses expected to do the frontline work. What is that pay for if there is no accountability when there are actual patient deaths as a result of their actions?

Reallybadidea · 10/07/2024 10:13

For me the crux of the issue is that if the babies were murdered then it is highly likely that LL was the culprit. Despite all the friends and family who say she was a great nurse and wonderful person and no clear motive, I think I would agree with the jury with their guilty verdict.

But although the prosecution has to prove beyond reasonable doubt that LL was guilty, they didn't need to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the babies were murdered. As others have said, in the absence of a "smoking gun" or an eyewitness, it is the weight of the evidence that so many babies died "unexpectedly" that proves that they were murdered. However, if there is doubt that a number of these babies were murdered because there are alternative explanations such as infection, a misplaced line, or even a general low standard of care, then the weight of the evidence that there was a murderer on the loose starts to look much weaker. And if we can't be sure that a baby was even murdered how can we convict anyone at all?

Freespeechisvital · 10/07/2024 10:28

However, if there is doubt that a number of these babies were murdered because there are alternative explanations such as infection, a misplaced line, or even a general low standard of care, then the weight of the evidence that there was a murderer on the loose starts to look much weaker. And if we can't be sure that a baby was even murdered how can we convict anyone at all?

Add in a blame culture and misogynistic attitudes to nursing and you have a full house.

I really hope this blows current issues in the NHS apart and those involved here are held criminally responsible.

I have direct experience of the lies, gaslighting and bullying of whistleblowing staff .
One was hounded out of of their job by collective mobbing on charges later found to been falsified.
The NMC also in the news this week following an investigation into failures in safeguarding,bullying and racism

The Francis report might as well not have happened.

Thetroutofnocraic1 · 10/07/2024 10:32

Mollypolly45 · 10/07/2024 09:15

There are some really helpful points being made here and I, too, am pleased that, while we don’t all agree, we haven’t resorted to trolling.

It’s a really interesting case and we are all essentially speculating on an incomplete set of data.

Some of us are speculating in favour of guilt.

Some of us are speculating in favour of poor evidence.

I’ve worked in acute services for 16 years and currently work in adult ITU/HDU.

I’ve worked within four different NHS Trusts and witnessed change since the recession of 2008.

With concerns highlighted by medical professionals and statisticians publicised by the Telegraph, Guardian and New Yorker, from a legal perspective, I feel very strongly that the evidence used in prosecution is extremely weak.

Without a weapon, motive or direct witnesses of harm occurring, I do not believe it can be proved beyond reasonable doubt that Letby is guilty.

That does not mean I am convinced of absolute innocence - anything is possible.

However, what comes to mind is the principle that often the most straightforward, boring cause of a phenomenon is usually the culprit.

Instead of UFOs causing crop circles, it’s probably a rogue cow or artistic farmer.

In a neonatal unit acknowledged to be…

  • Understaffed
  • Poorly attended by consultants
  • Staffed by few well trained nurses
  • Suffering from equipment shortages
  • Experiencing building failure from sewage backing up into ward sinks
  • Having ongoing concerns about poor leadership

… the most likely cause for increased adverse event and deaths is that these infants and their parents received inadequate care in a year where more stillbirths also occurred in maternity.

It is far, far less likely that a nurse whom Psychologists agree doesn’t fit the profile of a sociopath or psychopath, suddenly started taking repeated shifts to kill babies.

I’ve seen the NHS decline over the years.

I’ve witnessed grossly unsafe staffing levels daily.

I’ve seen patients sitting in their own faeces with bodily fluids dripping down dressed legs full of pressure wounds.

I’ve seen medication errors, documentation error, preventable accidents… everything.

The most likely factor in increasing incidents in any ward environment is not “a new angel of death” nurse or doctor.

It’s less exciting to accept, but the culprit is much more likely to be inadequate proper care due to an understaffed, undertrained, overworked workforce.

The spike in deaths on the CoC Neonatal ward are most likely just another sad case of failures in care of mother and babies similar to Nottingham or Staffordshire.

The only difference here is that a doctor made a shift spreadsheet and then went to the police about it.

It literally does not bare thinking about if Letby is innocent.

  • A dedicated nurse will have gone to jail, lost her career and had her life ruined.
  • Many parents will have gone through the trauma of being told their baby didn’t die of natural causes, but was murdered.
  • Alison Kelly (the former CoC Nurse Manager) was removed from her job and suspected from practice for failing to report Letby.
  • Several other senior colleagues at CoC have had their competence questioned.

It’s horrifying to think about.

It certainly is horrible to think about and the idea is every nurses worst nightmare. However I don’t think the many experts who believe Lucy is guilty thought so because it is the more exciting option. It took months and months of investigations to build the case.

somebody not meeting the typical profile of a serial killer according to psychologists does not indicate they are not guilty.

also almost all areas are understaffed and do not have the same amount of sudden unexplained deaths.

FinalCeleryScheme · 10/07/2024 10:38

This thread seems thoroughly pointless now. Tinylittleunicorn has shown there is no good reason to doubt the safety of the verdicts.

Any further questioning of the convictions can only be for reasons that have nothing to do with the facts.

toomanytonotice · 10/07/2024 10:49

FinalCeleryScheme · 10/07/2024 10:38

This thread seems thoroughly pointless now. Tinylittleunicorn has shown there is no good reason to doubt the safety of the verdicts.

Any further questioning of the convictions can only be for reasons that have nothing to do with the facts.

With respect to tinylittleunicorn, she is an anonymous poster on mumsnet.

unless she was a juror, barrister or police officer or otherwise directly involved in the prosecution/defence, she can’t possibly present as the definitive authority on the evidence.

as far as I can tell on this thread it’s a discussion around a court finding someone guilty of such heinous crimes with only circumstantial evidence. No one is saying it proves innocence/guilt.

miscarriages of justice do happen. Also hearing in mind this case was high profile and many details published- how many of the jurors would be truly non biased?

i don’t see anything wrong with a discussion around the evidence and whether it’s robust. It’s not “trial by mumsnet” and nobody is trying to condemn or not, just making sense of whether adding together a lot of smaller things equals murder.

Bigcoatlady · 10/07/2024 10:51

"is far, far less likely that a nurse whom Psychologists agree doesn’t fit the profile of a sociopath or psychopath, suddenly started taking repeated shifts to kill babies."

This one I can confidently put to bed. There isn't a profile of a serial killer that Letby could fit or not fit as we don't profile in that way in the UK. Its a pseudo science that has been widely used in the US - although it is treated with some scepticism there now, and it is not used here at all now. Forensic psychologists in the UK (I am a cli psy working in forensic settings) do not profile people and at no point did the police investigating the deaths at CoC try and 'profile' who did the killings because that would be futile. Inevitably people have speculated on why she did the crimes after her conviction but this isn't a meaningful exercise. No one actually working with offenders would say she is or is not a likely suspect as we just do not have an evidence base to say what people who kill noenates are like. Afaik we only have one other comparator in the UK - Beverley Allitt. Similarities and differences between two case studies are meaningless.

If they were killings the perpetrator could only be someone with access to the ward likely a HCP as a cleaner or porter would struggle to explain why they were accessing the babies cribs.

That's the only thing we can know for certain. That the killer is a HCP.

The alternative is the deaths were either natural and explained or medically unexplained (this was the finding at post mortem for most of them) but the explanation lies in the care the babies received. But this was investigated exhaustively first by the hospital and later by the police and the reasons why this hypothesis, which would reasonably be the likeliest explanation, was discounted were explained to the jury at trial. most notably the evidence of the presence of synthetic insulin in the bloodstream of a baby for whom this had not been prescribed.

Other than that we do know that female serial killers are very rare indeed but in the US where the population is larger more than 60% of them have been HCPs. That is not because HCPs have a personality type that makes them likely to kill (there are a lot of HCPs and very few serial killers so we can reasonably assume the likelihood of any nurse we meet being a murderer is close to zero) but because if you want to kill using non-violent means healthcare settings give you the opportunity to do that.

Subfusc · 10/07/2024 11:00

FinalCeleryScheme · 10/07/2024 10:38

This thread seems thoroughly pointless now. Tinylittleunicorn has shown there is no good reason to doubt the safety of the verdicts.

Any further questioning of the convictions can only be for reasons that have nothing to do with the facts.

With respect, your crediting of the posts of a totally anonymous person on the internet as having demonstrated to you the safety of a criminal conviction is more thought-provoking, in a disturbing way, in terms of how a jury might credulously relate to the testimony of an authoritative-sounding ‘expert witness’.

dougalfromthemagicroundabout · 10/07/2024 11:27

Thetroutofnocraic1 · 10/07/2024 10:32

It certainly is horrible to think about and the idea is every nurses worst nightmare. However I don’t think the many experts who believe Lucy is guilty thought so because it is the more exciting option. It took months and months of investigations to build the case.

somebody not meeting the typical profile of a serial killer according to psychologists does not indicate they are not guilty.

also almost all areas are understaffed and do not have the same amount of sudden unexplained deaths.

It's unbelievable really that there was SEWAGE backing up into the neonatal unit's SINKS and yet no managers held to account for this (let alone anything else).

I think it sadly reflects very badly on the media that the focus is on Letby the baby killer, vs the many, many failures that could and should have been resolved in that NHS trust. The salaries of the senior managers are vast, as are their pensions - what are they paid for when there's inadequate staffing, and SEWAGE IN THE SINKS?! Obviously that could lead to harm to the babies but tracing a particular adverse event directly to sewage is difficult and there's a vested interest in the management not taking steps to do so.

We know there are cover ups of bad data and substandard care (due to shortages, not due to the frontline staff themselves).

I recently was in hospital and saw a lot of risks and failures firsthand due to lack of staffing.

When I was discharged my notes said I was pregnant which was a bit of a shock since I'd had my period whilst in hospital!

Thetroutofnocraic1 · 10/07/2024 11:58

@dougalfromthemagicroundabout that sounds like an awful experience and very poor care . Sorry to hear that.

Was the sewage issue addressed and is there any correlation with this and a reduction in deaths?

Kittybythelighthouse · 10/07/2024 12:19

Thetroutofnocraic1 · 10/07/2024 11:58

@dougalfromthemagicroundabout that sounds like an awful experience and very poor care . Sorry to hear that.

Was the sewage issue addressed and is there any correlation with this and a reduction in deaths?

They rebuilt it and opened a new building in 2020.

OP posts:
Kittybythelighthouse · 10/07/2024 12:21

dougalfromthemagicroundabout · 10/07/2024 11:27

It's unbelievable really that there was SEWAGE backing up into the neonatal unit's SINKS and yet no managers held to account for this (let alone anything else).

I think it sadly reflects very badly on the media that the focus is on Letby the baby killer, vs the many, many failures that could and should have been resolved in that NHS trust. The salaries of the senior managers are vast, as are their pensions - what are they paid for when there's inadequate staffing, and SEWAGE IN THE SINKS?! Obviously that could lead to harm to the babies but tracing a particular adverse event directly to sewage is difficult and there's a vested interest in the management not taking steps to do so.

We know there are cover ups of bad data and substandard care (due to shortages, not due to the frontline staff themselves).

I recently was in hospital and saw a lot of risks and failures firsthand due to lack of staffing.

When I was discharged my notes said I was pregnant which was a bit of a shock since I'd had my period whilst in hospital!

It’s been obvious that the NHS is on its knees for some time, but the state that this hospital was in is really very shocking. I’m sure it’s not the only hospital in such dire straits, which is actually quite scary.

OP posts:
Kittybythelighthouse · 10/07/2024 12:38

Subfusc · 10/07/2024 11:00

With respect, your crediting of the posts of a totally anonymous person on the internet as having demonstrated to you the safety of a criminal conviction is more thought-provoking, in a disturbing way, in terms of how a jury might credulously relate to the testimony of an authoritative-sounding ‘expert witness’.

Quite! I don’t think the questions from increasing numbers of medics, scientists, legal experts, or statisticians is going to stop because someone on mumsnet thinks they made a point. We are all entitled to keep talking about it. As members of a democracy we have a right to discuss serious matters that affect us, such as issues within the justice system we all live under. It is in the public interest and therefore the public will keep talking about it.

Anyone who feels comfortable that justice has been done and is therefore disinterested in such a conversation does not have to take part. Everyone else is entitled to and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Attempts to shut down any discussion and interrupt public scrutiny are a little hysterical and frankly, a bit sinister. If you feel so upset by the public conversation around this, which is happening everywhere, not just here, you should have a think about why you feel like that. I mean this kindly! Unless you are personally connected to this case you should feel fairly neutral about any developments in the news. It’s been quite an eye opener for me that so many are so emotionally attached to a guilty verdict, seemingly at any cost. It’s unsettling, actually.

OP posts:
Onethreefiveseven · 10/07/2024 12:43

I have to say that the comments on this thread are only reinforcing my perception that this trial should have been conducted with expert jurors.

Here is a link to the 2022 report by the RSS containing recommendations for best practice in medical murder trials. How plausible is it that a jury of laypeople engaged with and followed all of these recommendations?

rss.org.uk/news-publication/news-publications/2024/general-news/rss-statement-on-the-statistical-aspects-of-the-lu/

Kittybythelighthouse · 10/07/2024 12:46

placemats · 10/07/2024 09:31

I look forward to reading Dr Phil Hammond's article in the next edition of Private Eye. It was written last September but publication was delayed because of the new trial.

Yes, me too. He tweeted about this last night. He is always measured and rational. Looking forward to reading his piece.

OP posts:
Kittybythelighthouse · 10/07/2024 12:48

Onethreefiveseven · 10/07/2024 12:43

I have to say that the comments on this thread are only reinforcing my perception that this trial should have been conducted with expert jurors.

Here is a link to the 2022 report by the RSS containing recommendations for best practice in medical murder trials. How plausible is it that a jury of laypeople engaged with and followed all of these recommendations?

rss.org.uk/news-publication/news-publications/2024/general-news/rss-statement-on-the-statistical-aspects-of-the-lu/

The RSS wrote a report about this and submitted it to the judge, prosecution, and defence in advance of the Letby trial asking that an expert statistician be called to the court, which unfortunately didn’t happen.

OP posts:
LimeShaker · 10/07/2024 12:59

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 10/07/2024 08:07

So the main misunderstanding here is HOW the case was investigated:

  1. Police are contacted and work to establish which of the collapses were suspicious. They do this by giving the medical records to Dewi Evans who combs through each patient’s medical records.

  2. Once it is establish that a collapse couldn’t be natural, the families involved are each assigned an investigation team that is responsible for collecting information on that case alone. They are told to look at all factors and draw their own conclusions in an open manner

  3. Investigation Teams spend months interviewing and collecting data. They then present their conclusions at a case conference. Each team independently returns with the conclusion that Lucy Letby was present at the collapse and is the most likely culprit. How do these teams come up with this independently when none of the families even knew they suspected Lucy at this point.

FYI- this is also the point that she writes those diary entries. An expert in serial killers suggests this is her being manipulative again to gain sympathy and make sure she can play the victim when arrested, which she does.

  1. Investigation now focuses on Letby and evidence gathering about her begins, including time sheets and interviewing consultants.

So you see- the timesheets and the consultants come very much AFTER they have established that she is the common factor. The police were scrupulously fair to her. Yet somehow people have got the whole thing arse over tip.

I agree the police were fair but, and this was highlighted in the NY article, the police are trained to look for a guilty person and they are good at that. They are not trained or equipped to investigate systematic failures and root causes in a department on its knees.

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