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The Guardian today on the safety of the Lucy Letby convictions

1000 replies

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/07/2024 08:40

This article was apparently months in the making but it was delayed by the reporting restrictions https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/jul/09/lucy-letby-evidence-experts-question

“A Guardian investigation has interviewed dozens of these experts and seen further evidence from emails and documents. Those raising concerns include several leading consultant neonatologists, some with current or recent leadership roles, and several senior neonatal nurses. Others are public health professionals, GPs, biochemists, a leading government microbiologist, and lawyers. Several of those still working in the NHS have asked to remain anonymous, fearing the impact if they are named.

These experts said they were acutely aware of the suffering of the families involved and did not want to reopen their trauma, but were so troubled they felt compelled to become involved”

OP posts:
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Kittybythelighthouse · 09/07/2024 16:08

Rainbowsponge · 09/07/2024 15:48

I would also like to add to my previous post that in cases like this even forensic evidence at the time of the event wouldn’t necessarily indicate guilt as you would expect Lucy’s fingerprints to be on the baby’s tubes/medicines. Unlike murder cases where there is no good reason for the defendant to have blood spots or DNA on their clothing/weapon, there would be a good reason for Lucy to be in the nurseries, handling the babies, handling their medical equipment. This makes the sort of ‘hard’ evidence you’re all searching for borderline impossible.

Hard evidence that there had been deliberate harm at all would be a start. That’s in contention, hence the article.

OP posts:
BifurBofurBombur · 09/07/2024 16:08

samarrange · 09/07/2024 16:03

Why would the baby's 100th day alive be relevant? Is the claim that LL was into numerology? Was there some pattern running through the other deaths too?

100 days alive is a key milestone for premature babies, as is the preemie making it to it’s actual due date.

LL knew these milestones for the baby. There is evidence that she targeted the baby on those key dates.

BifurBofurBombur · 09/07/2024 16:12

SilverDoe · 09/07/2024 16:04

Why are you being so shirty though @BouquetGarni224 this is a discussion thread, not your own personal stomping ground, why don't you tone it down a bit?

OP is militant and has set the tone for the thread.

I think Bouquet has been restrained in the face of the OP’s lurching claims.

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/07/2024 16:12

BifurBofurBombur · 09/07/2024 16:04

We believe who she’s guilty AF have no need to be ‘desperate’. She’s safely locked up for life, by two separate juries and has no leave to appeal. It’s her fans who are desperate.

Fortunately, for those of us more concerned with the law being held to the rigorous high standard that it should be than we are with burning a witch, there is still the CCRC.

OP posts:
HungryLittleCrocodile · 09/07/2024 16:13

HowIrresponsible · 09/07/2024 13:38

This place is unbelievable.

A few days ago there was a thread gunning for the woman who had a seizure, lost control of her car and ploughed into the school accidentally killing those children. They came up with all sorts of conspiracy theories for how she was rich and paid for legal advice and lied about the seizure. They wanted the records opened and the parents to.read her private med records - as if the CPS lawyers can't be trusted to do that.- and her charged.

But on here - a convicted killer and you all think she didn't do it.

God this place.

Batshit ain't it? The Lucy Letby conspiracy theorists need to get a new hobby, and stop all this conspiracy theory nonsense. Of course Lucy Letby is guilty FFS!

BouquetGarni224 · 09/07/2024 16:13

but I would imagine that baby loss is fairly tragic for all involved?

If she found it so tragic and traumatising, it's decidedly weird that she kept pushing to work on the ICU, instead of the other parts of the unit where every other nurse did shifts and where she was encouraged to do shifts too ; but resisted and states she found "boring".

That's why I was getting frustrated; speculation from posters about why LL would have been acting off; who apparently haven't actually read around the case.

BifurBofurBombur · 09/07/2024 16:14

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/07/2024 16:12

Fortunately, for those of us more concerned with the law being held to the rigorous high standard that it should be than we are with burning a witch, there is still the CCRC.

I don’t see any rigorous standards in your own posts.

You make outlandish claims and state them as fact and then move on when it’s inconvenient for you.

HungryLittleCrocodile · 09/07/2024 16:14

BifurBofurBombur · Today 16:04

We believe who she’s guilty AF have no need to be ‘desperate’. She’s safely locked up for life, by two separate juries and has no leave to appeal. It’s her fans who are desperate.

Yep this. ^

HungryLittleCrocodile · 09/07/2024 16:15

Why so desperate to believe Lucy Letby is innocent @Kittybythelighthouse ? Confused Why do you care?

Onethreefiveseven · 09/07/2024 16:15

@bigcoatlady thank you for the informative, detailed reply.

But surely (and I say this more in hope than anticipation) it is not an impossible ask to get a competent statistician to testify?

One of the reasons that the problems with this case have been apparent to so many of us is that they're actually quite basic. Surely anyone vetted by a reputable statistical organisation would do?

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/07/2024 16:16

BifurBofurBombur · 09/07/2024 16:12

OP is militant and has set the tone for the thread.

I think Bouquet has been restrained in the face of the OP’s lurching claims.

I shared an article wherein many medical and statistical experts express concerns about the safety of these convictions. My “lurching claims”, whatever that is meant to refer to, are not the point. I’m merely echoing what has been said by many experts in this article and elsewhere. If you don’t like the discussion you’re free to choose not to engage.

OP posts:
JennyBeanR · 09/07/2024 16:16

User2460177 · 09/07/2024 14:55

For me the issue is the lack of direct evidence. Nobody saw her do anything to these babies and there could well be other explanations for their deaths. I agree that such a lot of circumstantial evidence would indicate her involvement but I don’t know if it’s enough for a conviction.

Very few convictions are based on direct evidence. Eyewitness testimony is often misleading and witnesses regularly forget or change jey details under cross examination. There is nothing lesser about circumstancial evidence. It only looks suspect when you examine each piece of evidence in isolation. As a whole it paints a clear picture.

BouquetGarni224 · 09/07/2024 16:18

BifurBofurBombur · 09/07/2024 16:12

OP is militant and has set the tone for the thread.

I think Bouquet has been restrained in the face of the OP’s lurching claims.

Thank you.

And like the previous thread on this (same op, perhaps?) there is a load of incomplete information being cited by the op.

They keep leaving lots of pertinent information out. Why, is anyone's guess.

Trying to correct it/fill out all the missing parts is becoming beyond frustrating and I think I'm out. Best of luck to you posters who can be bothered.

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/07/2024 16:18

Onethreefiveseven · 09/07/2024 16:15

@bigcoatlady thank you for the informative, detailed reply.

But surely (and I say this more in hope than anticipation) it is not an impossible ask to get a competent statistician to testify?

One of the reasons that the problems with this case have been apparent to so many of us is that they're actually quite basic. Surely anyone vetted by a reputable statistical organisation would do?

The Royal Society of Statisticians actually provided a report on the poor use of stats in this case (and other healthcare murder cases like it which turned out to be miscarriages of justice) in advance of the Letby trial and asked the judge to ensure there was a statistician called to give evidence. It never happened.

OP posts:
Onethreefiveseven · 09/07/2024 16:21

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/07/2024 16:18

The Royal Society of Statisticians actually provided a report on the poor use of stats in this case (and other healthcare murder cases like it which turned out to be miscarriages of justice) in advance of the Letby trial and asked the judge to ensure there was a statistician called to give evidence. It never happened.

Edited

Wow, the situation is worse than I realized

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/07/2024 16:21

BouquetGarni224 · 09/07/2024 16:18

Thank you.

And like the previous thread on this (same op, perhaps?) there is a load of incomplete information being cited by the op.

They keep leaving lots of pertinent information out. Why, is anyone's guess.

Trying to correct it/fill out all the missing parts is becoming beyond frustrating and I think I'm out. Best of luck to you posters who can be bothered.

Do you expect me to write a thesis in the comments? The concerns raised in the article are the point. That’s what we are discussing. If you aren’t happy with that then please write to the Guardian and let them know. Don’t shoot the messenger. Have a lovely rest of your day.

OP posts:
BouquetGarni224 · 09/07/2024 16:21

BifurBofurBombur · 09/07/2024 16:14

I don’t see any rigorous standards in your own posts.

You make outlandish claims and state them as fact and then move on when it’s inconvenient for you.

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

halava · 09/07/2024 16:22

I place my trust in the juries of her peers, in the prosecution lawyers, in the evidence, in the witnesses.

The fact that she was refused leave to appeal is damning also. I don't intend to spend much of my time trying to figure out if she was wrongly convicted. I'm satisfied she wasn't. And that view is not only mine.

As a matter of interest, on what grounds could the case be reopened now, and how likely is that to happen?

ImperialCrusade · 09/07/2024 16:22

I followed this trial as well as I could remotely (reading the live tweets and daily write ups as well as listening to the podcast). It was a while ago now so I don't remember all the details so forgive me if what I say isn't completely accurate.

I started off really sceptical about the case. Everything just seemed coincidental and the evidence for the air embolism cases didn't seem strong (as in there wasn't proof that was what had happened).

Then there was a point in time (because the court case went through the babies chronologically) where she suddenly seemed to escalate. I think she had been on holiday or something and people on the ward were starting to get suspicious.

I think it was the cases of the triplets and perhaps one other baby who were well and getting ready to go home and suddenly they were all collapsing and iirc 2 of them died? There were nurses with experience in NICU who were commenting on the case outside court saying that this just was completely unusual. These were babies who were well (if small), not teetering on the edge of life. They said that normally when babies collapsed (and sometimes died) you would expect it in a way because they would deteriorate over a period of time. Whereas these were babies who went from being well to nearly dying suddenly and unexpectedly.

Then there was the case of one of the babies who had unexplained internal injuries.

Lucy Letby decided to give evidence and it just absolutely cemented for me that she was guilty. She conveniently couldn't remember anything that was important but could remember other events in great detail.

DancingLions · 09/07/2024 16:23

At this point I can only hope she is guilty, because it's truly horrifying if she isn't.

I've never felt comfortable with this case. I have worked in the CJS and am not blind to it's faults, it's not a "perfect" system. I also worked at the Health Service Ombudsman, where every day I would see cases where errors had been made in hospitals, many part of broader systemic failures. Dozens of cases would come in every day and they would only make it as far as the Ombudsman if there was a solid case.

It's plausible that she is guilty, it's also plausible that she isn't. I don't think it will ever be "proved" she isn't guilty, so at best she may be found to be a victim of a miscarriage of justice but many would still believe her guilty regardless.

SilverDoe · 09/07/2024 16:23

I don't know what to think on this one. There were stirrings when this was at trial but there have always been stirrings and loud proclaimers of innocence; high profile suspects always gain an air of celebrity.

The article does state that she doesn't have any history or psychological background which "matches" a serial killer, but I think that female killers have much less study and understanding into them.

Whether or not she is truly guilty, I can definitely see why grave concerns are being raised about the evidence used to convict her.

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/07/2024 16:25

HungryLittleCrocodile · 09/07/2024 16:15

Why so desperate to believe Lucy Letby is innocent @Kittybythelighthouse ? Confused Why do you care?

Sigh. I have not once said I think she’s innocent. I think the convictions are unsafe, as do many experts as quoted in the article.

OP posts:
FarmCFer · 09/07/2024 16:26

This makes me so angry.
Circumstancial yes. Be that as it may..what are the chances that a nurse who was present for every death also happened to be stashing handover sheets (even after moving house), bought a house near the hospital cemetery, looked up parents of dead babies on Facebook, took photos of a condolence card and made initials of the babies in her diary on the day they died.
None of these experts were in court. She is guilty and this is so offensive to the poor parents.

Letby accepts that 2 of the babies were poisoned with insulin. But not by her???? Come on.

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/07/2024 16:27

halava · 09/07/2024 16:22

I place my trust in the juries of her peers, in the prosecution lawyers, in the evidence, in the witnesses.

The fact that she was refused leave to appeal is damning also. I don't intend to spend much of my time trying to figure out if she was wrongly convicted. I'm satisfied she wasn't. And that view is not only mine.

As a matter of interest, on what grounds could the case be reopened now, and how likely is that to happen?

An application can be made to the CCRC. That would be the next (and I believe only) step available.

OP posts:
MattDamon · 09/07/2024 16:28

BifurBofurBombur · 09/07/2024 16:12

OP is militant and has set the tone for the thread.

I think Bouquet has been restrained in the face of the OP’s lurching claims.

OP has been measured and provided sources for her discussion points.

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