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The Guardian today on the safety of the Lucy Letby convictions

1000 replies

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/07/2024 08:40

This article was apparently months in the making but it was delayed by the reporting restrictions https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/jul/09/lucy-letby-evidence-experts-question

“A Guardian investigation has interviewed dozens of these experts and seen further evidence from emails and documents. Those raising concerns include several leading consultant neonatologists, some with current or recent leadership roles, and several senior neonatal nurses. Others are public health professionals, GPs, biochemists, a leading government microbiologist, and lawyers. Several of those still working in the NHS have asked to remain anonymous, fearing the impact if they are named.

These experts said they were acutely aware of the suffering of the families involved and did not want to reopen their trauma, but were so troubled they felt compelled to become involved”

OP posts:
Thread gallery
31
Tinylittleunicorn · 09/07/2024 14:24

MattDamon · 09/07/2024 14:20

'A key plank of the prosecution was that it was always Letby who was there when the babies collapsed or died unexpectedly.

The jury was shown a chart listing 25 deaths and collapses Letby was charged with and the names of the nurses who had worked on the unit through the period of the cluster of deaths. The column for Letby was marked with a cross for every incident, whereas other nurses had only been on shift for a few of them.

However, the jury was not told about six other deaths in the period with which Letby was not charged. They were omitted from the table.'

From the article linked in the OP.

That's what I'm saying. The article is wrong. It has got very basic facts about the case wrong

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/07/2024 14:25

Rainbowsponge · 09/07/2024 14:23

Why is it astonishing? What grounds did they have to treat them as suspects?

It is astonishing to ask the accusers of any alleged murderer to collect evidence. This is on its face an incredible thing to have done.

As to your other point, everyone who worked there should have been a suspect initially. There is no evidence that the police actually looked at anyone except Letby. In fact they say many times “it was obvious right away that it was her”.

OP posts:
JennyBeanR · 09/07/2024 14:26

Tinylittleunicorn · 09/07/2024 14:05

There is so much misinformation being spread by conspiracy theorists about this case.

For example this was a level two unit. Aside from a minority of unwell babies pending transfer to another unit, this is predominantly not an intensive care environment. No extremely premature or extremely sick infants would remain admitted there for any length of time and it is a complete mischaracterisation to refer to babies at this unit as being on the brink of death. Prior to the events of 2015/2016 only 2-3 babies died at this unit each year.

The idea that these deaths were viewed as normal or expected at the time is false. Consultants at the time of the deaths immediately noted a cluster of unusual hard to explain deaths in which the infants did not respond normally to resuscitation. They held meetings about this within a month of the first 4 deaths in 2015. Not all of the babies had a post mortem and at least some of the babies had a post mortem resulting in a finding of cause of death "unascertained". So this was categorically not a case of looking at LL and then going back retrospectively to recategorise deaths as unusual or unexplained, as some have insinuated. This absolutely was a case of something very unusual happening and that being investigated - albeit in a manner which was undermined and delayed by a management team that did not want to acknowledge clinician's concerns.

There has been a conflation of total infant deaths which includes stillbirths, that have nothing to do with neonatal care let alone the neonatal unit or it's nursing staff, with deaths that took place on the neonatal unit under the purview of neonatal staff. This has led to the misrepresentation of the abrupt and dramatic increase in deaths at the unit as less significant than it actually was, and even the fasle claim that LL was not present for many unexplained excess deaths. The unit had 2 deaths in 2013, 3 deaths in 2014, 8 deaths in 2015, and 5 deaths in 2016 which all took place before LL suspension to administrative duties in July. She was present at every single death that occured in 2015 and 2016.

I totally agree that her notes are not a confession, but I also must correct the misconception that she wrote them under any kind of duress or following her arrest. I believe she told the court that she wrote them in 2016 when she was on administrative leave and before she was ever arrested (but aware of a police investigation taking place). Talking about her distress about the babies and saying "I killed them" I believe is less meaningful than her references to never having a family - which is an odd remark for an innocent woman to make. Why would she believe she would never have a family? To me it reads as someone who is aware the police investigation is going to lead directly to them. But I totally agree that as evidence goes it is supportive but weak.

The handover sheets are something she collected over a long period beginning prior to her suspension or arrest, or indeed any suspicion of her at all. In and of itself taking home this volume of confidential material is deeply bizarre, unprofessional and illegal. It doesn't prove her involvement in the deaths but it does undermine claims that she was an "ordinary" "professional" nurse who was behaving entirely normally prior to the deaths.

A lot of has been made about her supposed "normality" whereas I see a mother who when LL was arrested said "take me, I did it!" (Did what???) and behaved in a very unusual and unpleasant manner in court. An adult woman (LL) who kept a child like bedroom at her parents home filled with bizarre collections of confidential data related to her work, one handover sheet she put in her personal diary, a printed photograph of a condolence card. That's not normal, it's very strange. LL told manipulative lies from the very start of the court case re being arrested in her undergarments / pyjamas to try to elicit sympathy, apparently relying on an assumption she would be believed. Her testimony in court is riddled with convenient memory lapses. She was so traumatised by the clinical incidents her memory wasn't functioning yet she continued to aggressively request to work with the most unwell patients and take on as much overtime as she could? These things are very flimsy in terms of evidence - I don't believe they should or did substantially contribute to her guilty verdict but I think they do not support the narrative that she is a completely normal young woman.

Ultimately this case rested on expert witnesses independently reaching a consensus for multiple babies that they were harmed intentionally and the prosecution then went on to demonstrate that only LL had the means to do this. This was not a blanket statistical approach (as has been implied) of charging her for every single death or suspicious event she attended but a case by case evidence based approach carefully presented to the jury over a period of 10 months.

None of the concerned signatories are in position to be expert witnesses in this case. There is a reason that the experienced defence team could not produce an expert witness with a different opinion/explanation for the babies injuries and deaths, nor could they adequately undermine the expert testimony in cross examination. I think the most likely reason for this is because the conclusion of intentional harm is sound.

I think people are very concerned about this case largely because of the gross misrepresentation of the facts of the prosecution's case from certain sources which thrive on the publicity any controversy about this case generates.

Edited

Extremely well said. I hope some posters give your words here some thought.

MattDamon · 09/07/2024 14:27

JennyBeanR · 09/07/2024 14:24

Exactly. I really doubt that person even bothered to go through the evidence.

I have a genuine interest in true crime and that is how I ended up consuming everything related to her trial. I like many others who had no stake in this, simply could not follow the trial,look at the evidence and say she's innocent. No way.
And seriously, the fact that people are claiming this isn't about her looks are delusional. It was precisely those looks which protected her in her job for so long.

If you have a genuine interest in true crime, one hopes that you would understand that a podcast produced by a media company is not neutral and should not be relied upon as fact.

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/07/2024 14:28

Tinylittleunicorn · 09/07/2024 14:24

That's what I'm saying. The article is wrong. It has got very basic facts about the case wrong

I understand that there is actually some confusion generally about definite numbers, because on occasion neonatal deaths were ruled as stillbirths. Apparently this happens fairly often in NICU wards, but I’ll leave that point to someone who has more info on it.

OP posts:
Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 09/07/2024 14:28

@JennyBeanR

I do think there is an element online that is trying to drum up the appetite for an appeal. Her parents and some of her friends don’t accept the verdict and have behaved terribly in an attempt to discredit the doctors and the police.

And let’s not pretend that she’s a nice person who was well liked. She was very manipulative in court. She was allowed a lot of leeway in court. She was very controlling, which tracks with her crimes.

MattDamon · 09/07/2024 14:29

Tinylittleunicorn · 09/07/2024 14:24

That's what I'm saying. The article is wrong. It has got very basic facts about the case wrong

You should write to the Guardian with your concerns citing the correct evidence.

BifurBofurBombur · 09/07/2024 14:29

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/07/2024 11:00

@MoreDangerousThanAWomanScorned

“However, the article doesn't mention the keeping of patient notes (against all hospital rules) or the seemingly obsessive searching for the parents of babies who had died online”

She didn’t keep patient notes. She had 257 handover sheets, around 250 had absolutely nothing to do with any of the babies in question. Handover sheets are actually very dry documents, single sheets of a4 paper. Nurses fill these in to give to the nurse taking over after a shift. In reality they frequently end up coming home in pockets, piled up to be shredded later. This isn’t meaningful to me at all.

She did not “obsessively” search for the parents online. She searched literally once or twice for a couple of the parents to see how they were doing. That’s not unusual. Many nurses do this, though perhaps they shouldn’t. It’s not evidence of anything. Much was made of her searching for Baby K’s surname 2 years after the death. The search happens to have taken place after Nurse Williams’s interview with police. You can read into that if you want, but NW spoke quite strongly against Jarayam’s account of the events in the case of Baby K at the retrial. Letby hadn’t searched the name before and says she doesn’t recall searching it. We don’t even know what she clicked on, or if it was connected to them at all. We just know it was the same surname.

“She had a relationship with a doctor and the deaths gave her attention and sympathy from him.”

This is the most egregious myth. According to the texts they read in court, the doctor was far more forward than she was. She was quite aloof. He offered her a couple of lifts home after upsetting shifts and she declined. Not exactly the actions of a woman obsessed. They also went on a series of trips together to London and somewhere else I can’t recall. There may have been an affair, but I don’t buy the motivation to murder babies to get his attention here. He was giving his attention freely. If anything a married doctor, 20 years older, isn’t covering himself in glory here.

Edited

The patient sheets were meaningful because at least 20 of them were for babies she’d killed or tried to kill.

And some of the babies’ parents names had unusual spellings which she couldn’t spell in court.

So the handover sheets were useful reminders of the babies names for stalking, as well as additional details about the babies which helped her to decide which baby to target next.

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 09/07/2024 14:30

@MattDamon

That why some of use have listened to multiple podcasts and read many articles and watched the documentaries. I’m convinced she did it.

Do know the case of Baby G?

JennyBeanR · 09/07/2024 14:31

MattDamon · 09/07/2024 14:27

If you have a genuine interest in true crime, one hopes that you would understand that a podcast produced by a media company is not neutral and should not be relied upon as fact.

The podcast isn't the only source for information relating to the trial. I know that journalists are massively misrepresenting what evidence was presented in trial. Like the article the OP is referring to. I think it's despicable and grossly offensive to the parents of the babies.

Does it not give you pause to wonder why they would choose to mislead the public on the evidence?

Why not dispute the evidence given by the prosecution directly?

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/07/2024 14:33

BifurBofurBombur · 09/07/2024 14:29

The patient sheets were meaningful because at least 20 of them were for babies she’d killed or tried to kill.

And some of the babies’ parents names had unusual spellings which she couldn’t spell in court.

So the handover sheets were useful reminders of the babies names for stalking, as well as additional details about the babies which helped her to decide which baby to target next.

90% of the handover sheets had nothing to do with any of the babies. She also didn’t have handover sheets related to ALL of the babies. Why keep 257 sheets of paper, most of which are irrelevant, stuffed into bin bags, in order to…have a record of “names for stalking”? That’s a weird filing system. Why not just, I don’t know, write the important info down in a diary or on post or notes? Come on. That’s just sensational nonsense.

OP posts:
JennyBeanR · 09/07/2024 14:34

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 09/07/2024 14:28

@JennyBeanR

I do think there is an element online that is trying to drum up the appetite for an appeal. Her parents and some of her friends don’t accept the verdict and have behaved terribly in an attempt to discredit the doctors and the police.

And let’s not pretend that she’s a nice person who was well liked. She was very manipulative in court. She was allowed a lot of leeway in court. She was very controlling, which tracks with her crimes.

Yes, I can understand why her family would be desperate for an appeal. I think most of us would do everything for our child.

It's the conspiracy theorists and the pseudo journos that I find despicable though.

CharlotteLightandDark · 09/07/2024 14:35

Jifmicroliquid · 09/07/2024 11:10

I’ve never been convinced. I hope to god she is guilty because if she isn’t, well it doesn’t bear thinking about.

This is exactly where I’m at. I listened the the whole of the trial podcast and wasn’t convinced there wasn’t reasonable doubt.

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/07/2024 14:37

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 09/07/2024 14:28

@JennyBeanR

I do think there is an element online that is trying to drum up the appetite for an appeal. Her parents and some of her friends don’t accept the verdict and have behaved terribly in an attempt to discredit the doctors and the police.

And let’s not pretend that she’s a nice person who was well liked. She was very manipulative in court. She was allowed a lot of leeway in court. She was very controlling, which tracks with her crimes.

Nobody cares if she was well liked, except the people who keep desperately insisting that her likability is the only reason anyone is questioning the safety of the convictions. It’s totally irrelevant whether you like her or not. We don’t lock people up for life because they aren’t likeable.

OP posts:
MattDamon · 09/07/2024 14:38

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 09/07/2024 14:30

@MattDamon

That why some of use have listened to multiple podcasts and read many articles and watched the documentaries. I’m convinced she did it.

Do know the case of Baby G?

All of those things will have a slant to them. Consuming vast amounts of media and opinion doesn't mean you have an accurate picture. Anyone coming on here claiming they know what really happened because they listened to some podcasts and read some articles sounds ridiculous. Actual medical experts with decades(!) of hands-on experience disagree about what happened.

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/07/2024 14:38

JennyBeanR · 09/07/2024 14:31

The podcast isn't the only source for information relating to the trial. I know that journalists are massively misrepresenting what evidence was presented in trial. Like the article the OP is referring to. I think it's despicable and grossly offensive to the parents of the babies.

Does it not give you pause to wonder why they would choose to mislead the public on the evidence?

Why not dispute the evidence given by the prosecution directly?

If you have questions about the accuracy of the piece, or the integrity of the journalist who wrote the piece, you should raise that with The Guardian and ask for a retraction.

OP posts:
BifurBofurBombur · 09/07/2024 14:39

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/07/2024 11:31

Yes. Look at the beginning of the sentence “I killed them” to the left of “I did this”.

I can’t make out ‘they went’. Has that been corroborated by a hand writing expert?

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 09/07/2024 14:41

@Kittybythelighthouse

It wasn’t just handover sheets. She kept the resuscitation notes for Baby M at her house, in a box under her bed.

The reason why Operation Hummingbird has been extended is that the police suspect that those other sheets relate to previous events in her escalation to kill.

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 09/07/2024 14:42

@MattDamon

How do you know you’re right? You have a slant as well. Have you thought about why you are so convinced she’s innocent?

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 09/07/2024 14:42

JennyBeanR · 09/07/2024 14:34

Yes, I can understand why her family would be desperate for an appeal. I think most of us would do everything for our child.

It's the conspiracy theorists and the pseudo journos that I find despicable though.

Why are you calling them ‘pseudo’ journalists when they are actually journalists?
And how come the ones who made the DM podcast are not pseudo?
Surely it can’t be that they are real if you agree with them, pseudo if you don’t?

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/07/2024 14:45

BifurBofurBombur · 09/07/2024 14:39

I can’t make out ‘they went’. Has that been corroborated by a hand writing expert?

Some see “they went”. I do. If you don’t that’s fine. As far as I know the only ‘handwriting expert’ who examined the notes is one that the Daily Mail quoted. I’m certainly not interested in getting into the pseudoscience of Daily Mail handwriting ‘experts’. The notes are irrelevant to me either way. The point of the article, and my interest in the case, is in establishing whether or not there were any murders in the first place. If there weren’t the notes and all the other stuff like her “weird beige room” and her “obsession” with Dr A, are irrelevant.

OP posts:
samarrange · 09/07/2024 14:46

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 09/07/2024 14:28

@JennyBeanR

I do think there is an element online that is trying to drum up the appetite for an appeal. Her parents and some of her friends don’t accept the verdict and have behaved terribly in an attempt to discredit the doctors and the police.

And let’s not pretend that she’s a nice person who was well liked. She was very manipulative in court. She was allowed a lot of leeway in court. She was very controlling, which tracks with her crimes.

She was very controlling, which tracks with her crimes.

But this is not evidence of guilt. There are millions of controlling people out there. And someone who is perceived as controlling would be more likely to be chosen (incorrectly) as a suspect, if it was in fact the case that these deaths were not deliberate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beggingthequestion

Begging the question - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

Terraz · 09/07/2024 14:48

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/07/2024 10:40

Do you mean the post it notes? These were written after she had been first arrested and knew what she was being accused of. This is after a year of (from her perspective) being hounded by Jarayam and Brearey. The notes read to me like the outpourings of someone in great psychological distress. They also don’t quite say what people think they say. “They went I killed them” is not the same thing as “I killed them”.

However, the post it notes and all other circumstantial evidence are irrelevant if no murders occurred in the first place, which is a definite possibility.

The note says
‘how will things ever be like they used to. They won’t’ that’s all in the same writing/style

and then below, bolder ‘I killed them’

You may disagree but it’s clear and makes much more sense than your theory.

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/07/2024 14:49

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 09/07/2024 14:41

@Kittybythelighthouse

It wasn’t just handover sheets. She kept the resuscitation notes for Baby M at her house, in a box under her bed.

The reason why Operation Hummingbird has been extended is that the police suspect that those other sheets relate to previous events in her escalation to kill.

The resus notes for Baby M was not “in a box”. It was in a Morrison’s bag along with dozens of other, unrelated, bits of paper.

I am not really interested in what Operation Hummingbird are doing. I’m sure they’ll pin Shergar on her next. I’m interested in the safety of the extant convictions.

OP posts:
MistressoftheDarkSide · 09/07/2024 14:50

I assume her entire working history is being gone through in the search for further victims? Is that what Operation Hummingbird is about?

A PP said she had spent three uneventful years on the Unit in question prior to the "spike" in unusual collapses and deaths? Is that correct?

In that case, did something "trigger" her at that time or emboldened her to escalate from causing "collapses" to killing?

She's either a cold criminal psychopathic mastermind or has dropped herself right in it.

I'm also concerned that it took a while to take her off the ward after concerns were raised. Given that parents suspected of harming their children are often immediately separated from them and only allowed minimal supervised contact, what on earth was the thinking behind this?

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