Dual nationality: where do your loyalties lie?

[rickyrickygrimes]

i live in France, where as you may know the far right are making huge inroads and coming close to being elected.

one of their main focuses is dual nationality. I remember listening to a talk by a geopolitical expert some time ago, and he said the dual nationality was a nonsense because, at its heart, nationality is about which country or state would you die for, which one would you make the ultimate sacrifice for.

What do you think? We don’t really get called upon to make the ‘ultimate sacrifice’ much these days (though in Ukraine they are). Do you have dual nationality? Do you have a ‘top’ country that you favour? Which one would you choose, if you had to?

I meant as an abstract question not as a reality! I think a lot of men enjoy the talk but the reality of war is always awful and the people who suffer are rarely those who wanted the war in the first place.

I'm a German/American dual national. I was born in America but I absorbed a lot of my mother's German culture, outlook etc etc. And my spent a lot of time with my German grandmother. I also spent a lot of time with my dad's American family. I never felt like I quite belonged to either country/culture. Then I moved to the UK 20 years ago for university and married a British guy. And our son has three passports. I feel at home in London. But I don't feel totally British ether. My friendship group is from all over the world and I really like how diverse London is. I am not keen on nationalism and feeling that I only belong to one country so I'm not sure I'd be able to pick one.

The geopolitics expert I referred to was born a Hungarian Jew in 1949, whose parents fled to the US in the aftermath of WW2. So he’s pretty well informed as to the very real consequences of nationalism, nationality, and the manipulation of both by governments.

it’s in my mind, and maybe living on mainland Europe makes it more real. Plus I recently visited Normandy, the D-Day beaches and the cemeteries and memorials. It makes it real.

Hmm. I’m Scottish/English. I appreciate it’s all UK but it’s the only comparison I have.

My heart says Scotland. If there was a World Cup final between them (let’s just suspend reality here) then it would have to be Scotland. But if I had to fight for one? It would be to do whatever gave my DC the best chance of survival. They’re English, so if that meant fighting for Scotland against my Scottish family then so be it. If that meant hot footing to relatives in Scotland and hiding them there to fight for Scotland so be it.

@CatherinedeBourgh
I think nationalism of all stripes is highly toxic in fact, and the main reason we hold so many passports is to have somewhere to be able to go if/when things go bad. I have lived in a country where a second passport was literally a lifesaver, and it was not that long ago that Jewish people without a second nationality were unable to leave Germany. I want to make sure we all have that option, whatever comes down the line.

This is it for me and I find nationalism of any kind makes me uneasy, even so-called 'civic' nationalism. I don't think of having loyalties or favouring one country over the other, it's more tied up with my Jewish psyche: if conditions ever deteriorated in the UK to the extent I needed to leave, would France be safe for me. I want options and even having dual nationality doesn't feel like enough, but it does feel like a privilege.

Super interesting thread @rickyrickygrimes !

Can't remember who said this and I get your point, but there is no evidence that Hitler had Jewish ancestry so let's nip that in the bud.

But Is it a hatred of foreigners or more about wanting to preserve and sustain your own nation’s unique culture and traditions? The countries I can think of who do not recognise dual nationality are Japan, India and China. Having lived and worked in all of these 3 countries I know they all prioritise nationality.

Their children are bought up to love and defend their mother country. It is very difficult to also get nationality in these countries unless one of your parents is also a national and even then there are strict rules about birth place and how many years you have lived there. They believe children need at least one native parent to instruct them in the language, ways and subtleties of the society which they believe 2 foreign parents cannot do.

By doing this they believe their unique language, culture and tradition of their country will be sustained and preserved through the generations and not diluted until it becomes unrecognisable globalised mish mash

Sorry meant to say ‘unless at least one of your parents is a national’

it’s in my mind, and maybe living on mainland Europe makes it more real.
I agree. There are so many plaques in my town commemorating partisans who stood up to the nazis and were executed in the street. They were mainly in their teens/early twenties -same age as my ds - and that's in living memory.

@Quisisana

we live pretty much next door to DSs lycée where they have plaques to commemorate the students -16-18 yr olds - who were executed by the nazis, and who were taken to the camps. ☹️ I think we forget how very quickly things can go from theoretical to very very real.

I will also add - Britain's decision to structure visas such that I can never bring ailing parents here from my home country ensures that I will never feel full allegiance. Evil, cruel, inhumane policy

My parents are from two different countries and I’ve emigrated twice. I appreciate aspects of all the places and cultures, but I wouldn’t particularly like to die for any. I don’t feel tied to any one place, and I like that tbh. I wouldn’t want to feel tied.

I'm a psychologist, which leads me to look at this through the lens of psychological theory and research.

Social identity theory posits that people categorise themselves and others into social groups based on perceptions of shared characteristics. Once self identified/having categorised oneself as part of a group, we compare our group with other groups, emphasising differences between groups in order to make the category seem meaningful.

If you were to create a venn diagram of different nationalities, I think it would be difficult to find any characteristics that were unique to any specific nationalities. You may find a greater prevalence of certain characteristics, but I am not sure this would prove to be statistically significant when the population of each 'nationality' was considered.

I have dual nationality. I spend a lot of time in both countries. However, in each, I am surrounded by people like me, due to where I stay and what I do. This affirms experiences of what people from each nation 'are like'.

Recently, I had a two week emergency admission to hospital. I was in a bay of 5. During my stay, I encountered 16 nationals who were very different to what I hold in mind when I think of this nationality. They were also pretty different to each other. I can't say if they were more or less like my other nationality. They didn't really fit with either of the categories I hold in mind. I had a lot of time to think, and my pain meds were strong, but I came to the conclusion that, b
small sample aside, nationality differences cease to exist when receiving hospital care.

Now fully recovered, I think it was just further evidence of the diversity of human behaviour and characteristics and that it is biased attention and perception that leads us to confidently conclude that we are 'like them' and 'not like them' when describing large numbers of people we have never met or spent time with.

I have British and Belgian nationality as does DD. I still feel predominantly British though and I'm glad England Belgium didn't meet in the football. I love Belgium but think I live in too much of an "expat" bubble to be fully integrated, though i have worked for local companies for 18 years (working language is predominantly English however). I have lovely work colleagues but it's not really a Belgian thing to socialise outside work. Family and old friends are a big focus here. Dd probably feels much more Belgian and I know she feels sad that we don't have the big family set up here that many of her friends have. We have talked often about where we will live in retirement. A big part of me wants to go back to UK - seems glimmeringly more possible now the tories are out - but conscious dd may well stay in Belgium - and I hate the idea of being far away from her and any possible gc etc. Though she's quite a lover of travel so could potentially end up anywhere.

I agree on an individual level people from all nationalities and ethnicities display common human traits and personalities so can be good, bad, optimistic, pessimistic, extrovert, introvert etc hence why you wouldn’t necessarily be friend with someone just because you share an nationality or ethnicity.

I think those countries which value their culture and traditions and want to sustain and preserve them also believe in the nation state. Also whenever I travel to another country I always find something there which I think is very indicative of the national mindset and a common value shared amongst their society.

But the differences between regions in a country can be huge, as different as between two regions in different countries.

The country concept is completely arbitrary, very often two towns just across a frontier will be more similar than two towns on opposite ends of a country.

I agree Catherine.

Factors such as sociology economic status, religious affiliation, and level of education make significant differences.

Before globalisation, social norms were more marked between nations and cultures. That is becoming less marked and with global media entertainment, intergenerational differences within a nation can be more marked than cross nation differences within GenZ

I think National mindset and attitudes which are common across a nation is usually much deeper than regional habits . It is usually derived from philosophical beliefs and/or religions. In China much of what it considers important such as the family unit, filial piety and education is as a result of the teachings of Confucius and Buddhism. In Japan Shinto emphasis on the importance of purification and order is seen in its obsessive cleanliness, punctuality and hierarchical society.

The British sense of fair mindedness, playing by the rules and even its obsessive adherence to queuing can be traced back to the development of English common law which set about the establishment of a society based on law and order.

If Iceland and the UK ever get into a war it will last 5 minutes and I don't think anyone will need to get hurt. I suppose there were the cod wars but fair to say Britain didn't put their full force into that one.

I like it when Iceland beat England at football because it's funny.

I'm English really, but I still wouldn't die for England.

Very true. Italy has many citizens who speak German as a first language and the culture and traditions are obviously completely different to those in Sicily. I read that during the war soldiers from these areas were posted far away because it was feared they wouldn't fight Austrians who lived close by as they had an affinity with them. 😪