Dual nationality: where do your loyalties lie?

[rickyrickygrimes]

i live in France, where as you may know the far right are making huge inroads and coming close to being elected.

one of their main focuses is dual nationality. I remember listening to a talk by a geopolitical expert some time ago, and he said the dual nationality was a nonsense because, at its heart, nationality is about which country or state would you die for, which one would you make the ultimate sacrifice for.

What do you think? We don’t really get called upon to make the ‘ultimate sacrifice’ much these days (though in Ukraine they are). Do you have dual nationality? Do you have a ‘top’ country that you favour? Which one would you choose, if you had to?

I have triple nationality and no particular loyalty to any of the countries.

I'm dual heritage (not nationality). But I wouldn't die for any country.

I find the idea that I might never live in the UK again, that I might end up living in France for longer than I lived in the UK and eventually die here, very odd.
Yes, I have just got to the stage where I have lived in Italy longer than in the UK and it is a bit strange. I never really planned it and lately I've been feeling homesick for the first time in years.

I was British Pakistani, now I’m just British, I will soon be British Swedish. My husband is South African, Swedish, British and our children are Swedish British. Neither of the adults have loyalties anywhere, we both find patriotism a bit strange, as its just chance where your parents raise you.

Rephrase it differently. If you could only keep one passport and live in that country, which one would you choose? My mum was born in the UK but ethnically from a different country/continent. In that country, you can only have one passport. My grandma (not white) has a British passport and she had to give up her other one (birth country and where she grew up).

After Brexit that's an easy question for me. It would have to be Italian in order to more easily stay with my family.

I am a dual national. Wouldn’t die for either country, that’s ridiculous. I do have a top one I identify with 99% of the time, in that I feel much more A than I do B - A is the country I was born in, raised and where I lived the majority of my life, whereas B I only got through my parents who were born somewhere else. I only really feel like A culturally, with a slight B “background”. It helps that the A passport is more powerful than B, and as I travel several times a month, it’s also more practical to use A as my default passport.

France is a whole other problem though. They’re not coming up with this rule to prevent your Scottish children from working in the civil service (unless they fit the following description). This whole concept targets a different type of dual nationality - AKA French children and nationals who unfortunately don’t look French and some people won’t ever, ever think of them as French even if they’re 2nd/3rd generation born and bred, because that’s the far right for you. French nationals who culturally don’t follow the customs and religions traditionally practised in France.

Sadly it’s not about loyalties, it’s about ever-present racism and xenophobia…

Yes. OP, your ‘geopolitical export’ is a fool.

I remember listening to a talk by a geopolitical expert some time ago, and he said the dual nationality was a nonsense because, at its heart, nationality is about which country or state would you die for, which one would you make the ultimate sacrifice for.

Is this 1914?

I am Scottish and live in Australia, I have a physical tie to Australia because my daughter was born there, I have no emotional ties to the country at all. I also have a weird and warped viewpoint, and have never applied for citizenship in Australia because of this, and only have permanent residency. I don't want to be Australian, many people do and find it meaningful, I'd find it convenient. So yes, I agree to an extent. Even if I apply for citizenship, I will always be Scottish and never Australian

Weird, isn't it?

There are worse places to live and die than Italy though!

Whilst this is absolutely true, and the OP's Scottish/my British children aren't the target, that doesn't mean we wouldn't be affected by it. I suspect that if any new law were actually to come to pass about dual nationals, the line would be drawn at EU vs non EU nationalities, and the excuse given would be that they are restricted in what they can do because of EU rules. They would expose themselves to too much criticism for racism if the rule was basically "EU plus nice white Christian countries".

We have a lot of friends here whose children have British or American or Australian citizenship and I assume we would all be affected.

My parents are first generation immigrants and I grew up in Britain from a very young age. I could apply for a passport from their country and have dual nationality but I have chosen not to as Britain is my home and my country and if it came to it I would be prepared to fight and die for it.

I have experienced lot of nasty vicious discrimination in Britain, it was worse in the 70s and 80s when I was a child but started to improve in the 90s especially following the Stephen Lawrence murder when the institutions really examined themselves on the racism from within and were prepared to change. Nowadays it is so rare that I’m almost surprised by it and interestingly it usually comes from ethnicities other than white.

I’m culturally British and this was reinforced when soon after graduation I went to work in my parent’s home country and it felt foreign and I was treated as so even though I understood the customs and was fluent in the language and looked and behaved like everyone else. I found the mentality and work environment difficult it is a very hierarchical society and culturally insular. I have also worked in several other countries on different continents so have been able to compare them with living and working in Britain.

My DH is British on both sides of his family and can trace his ancestry back to William the Conqueror. My dcs have regular exposure to my parent’s culture which they understand and appreciate but they are culturally British in their outlook and attitudes. I find it very strange and disconcerting that so many British people are so disdainful of Britain and being British. In my experience no country, ethnicity or nation is perfect and Britain is pretty good in the most important matters and this is where I feel most at home.

Interesting question. I'm Australian and aged 50. I left Australia 26 years ago- so I've lived out of Australia longer than I lived in Australia. But I only came to Britain 16 years ago. I have a British husband and British children. I also only have permanent residency because I don't 'feel British'. But I don't really feel Australian either, nowadays.

I am not that interested in sport. My best friend in Australia who has never been outside the country once told me that the 'test' was who I'd back in the Ashes. Well that's a nonsense to me because i simply don't care. In the Olympics I only care about the equestrian sports and I suppose i am delighted if the UK or Australian teams win.

I would not die for either country. I live in the UK pay stonking taxes here and have largely made my life here. But recently DH and i have considered emigrating- just not sure where. His father was not from the Uk and although he does not have dual nationality he was always brought up with the idea that you move countries if the country you are in does not work for you as well as you working for it. I'm a bit the same. My grandparents fled Europe during WW2 so were 'New Australians'.

I love the UK. I love where we live and i love British culture. But I reckon I would be able to make a new life elsewhere if need be.

I hear you - I too am South African and British, and I never really feel like I belong in either.
I think if I had to choose, I'd choose South Africa though, despite the years I've been here, but I don't think I'd feel any more at home there than I do here.

You sound like my mum! She considers herself English because she was born in England and has a British passport. She is not white and her parents weren't born here. I find it embarrassing that some English people don't like to say they're English and consider themselves Irish or French etc because their great great grandma was. I'm only half white/British but consider myself British.

This too. I have a 'hard line' and if we reach it, then as a family I expect us to leave the Uk. I know how big it is to relocate, so I don't say that lightly. But I also grew up under one of the most horrific right wing conservative governments and I don't intend for my daughter to have an experience even close to that.

I'm dual national. Born in Singapore to Dutch parents then moved to UK at 6 years old. Couldn't be dual Singapore/Dutch so chose Dutch. Thanks to Brexit I became British.
It's funny that even though I've never lived in the Netherlands I feel very Dutch. I guess it's because of my Dutch parents and the values they gave me.

One vote for "not the RN" duly cast!

Up yours, Bardella.

I agree the concept of dying for your country smacks of toxic masculinity.

i wish it could be dismissed so easily: what do you think is happening in Ukraine and Russia just now? In a time of war, it isn’t actually your decision: the government will decide who is conscripted and who is imprisoned because their loyalties are seen as questionable.

@MissScarletInTheBallroom i can see use getting swept up in this kind of net. Brexit has already made life more difficult, and now it’s coming from the other side too.

I have Kenyan and British nationality.

I feel no pride or loyalty for something I am entitled to through no achievement of mine. Well, unless you count marrying someone an achievement.

My parents shagged in the UK. My husband's parents shagged in Kenya. What part of that has earned my loyalty and pride? 🤷

Which one would I choose if I had to? What do you mean by had to? Do you mean which one would I fight for if fighting was my only option and my only choice was pick the fight? Neither. Which one would I die for? Neither. Ultimate sacrifice? Neither.

If I'm in the situation where I only have the option of dying for one or the other then I might as well choose via eeny meeny miney mo for all I care about loyalty. No country that wants me to die for them is one that deserves my loyalty.

I don't understand the concept of feeling loyalty and pride in something that is so completely random and out of your control such as where you happened to be born. You didn't do it. You didn't earn it. It didn't happen because you deserve it. You didn't create it. You weren't part of shaping its history. You literally plopped out of a woman one day.

I'm British/Australian. Spent most of my life in the UK. But I'm not really sure which I'd choose

Personally, it’d be the Uk. The way I see it is this : this is the country that’s given me opportunities, I’m raising my children here , so of course, were there to be a war ( God forbid ) between my birth country and the UK, I’d be in the UK army. This is hike for me, it’s hike for my children, too.

I agree with a pp that racism from non white cultures is also definitely prevalent.

My niece and nephews were born in France to a French father and a Moroccan mother. If they'd been born in Morocco they would be recognised as French citizens. But because they were born in France and my brother in law is not a Muslim, their parents' marriage is not recognised by the Moroccan government and the children are not entitled to Moroccan citizenship.

Ironically this gives them greater protection against any laws about dual citizens brought in by a RN government than my children, who have British citizenship. Despite the fact that any such laws would clearly be intended to target "half Moroccans", not "half Brits".

Interestingly, Jordan Bardella himself has far more non French than French heritage. His mother is from Italy, his father is part Italian and he also has Algerian and Moroccan ancestry.

I can't help but see a parallel there with Hitler having Jewish ancestry. I think there's some complex self hatred going on there which is manifesting itself as hatred of others who he considers to be more foreign than himself.