Mother admits ending sons life

[vacay]

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I'm not sure how I feel about this?
On the one hand she didn't want to see her son suffer anymore. But surely a 7 year old when he asked his mom to take the pain away didn't mean to end his life?

Sorry if there is already a thread going I haven't checked

This is something that I feel really strongly about. Yes addictive painkillers for otherwise healthy people are a big issue. Of course they are. It’s a risks vs benefits situation. But where someone is in chronic, degenerative life long pain or dying we need to learn to be more compassionate and accept that actually addiction is the least of anyone’s worries.

I have lupus, Addisons, asthma, bladder and kidney issues, all sorts. There isn’t a part of my body that works as it should. I am in pain every day and things will only get worse. I use Tramadol and amitriptyline to control the pain and have some semblance of a “normal” life. I cannot tell you the amount of people who have lectured me about how addictive Tramadol etc is. Really just shows their utter ignorance.

You are citing an individual case. So this woman took the case to court because she was worried he might be prosecuted if he took her without permission. There are plenty of instances where the husband has taken his wife without asking prior permission and faced the possible legal repercussions after she died. And there was a good chance that in this case he wouldn't have been prosecuted anyway. You can't change the law based on this one instance alone.

Elder abuse is a very real thing . There are many elderly people, and other vulnerable adults, who would be at real risk if the law was changed.

I really don't want to argue about this because I certainly won't change my mind. Euthanasia is a slippery slope to go down. I only mentioned my stance on euthanasia and assisted suicide to put into context that despite my views on these my sympathy was totally with this poor women and the dilemma she faced.

@NeedyTiger i am so sorry for the loss of your daughter.

3 years ago, after a horrifying day, my toddler was diagnosed with a huge brain tumour. It was mostly removed the next day in very risky surgery.

It was 50-50 whether it was going to be a type that would kill her (100% mortality rate) or probably wouldn't (10% mortality rate).

That night, I held him and silently sobbed all night. My first prayer was that it was the 'better' type, but my second was that if it was the terminal type, that he'd die on the operating table and so would never suffer.

I also had the realisation at the time, that as much as I'd have been willing to do what that lady did, if there was no other way for him to escape suffering (and then join him), a younger sibling meant I couldn't.

The coin fell in his favour, and I started this post with him tucked up against me asleep, and the future looking ok. Bullet dodged but the darkness of that night will never leave me.

I don't think anyone who either walks or gets a glimpse down that road, especially for a child will feel anything but sadness and understanding at the decision this woman made.

They don’t have the capacity to chose to suffer with cancer either.

If I were in the same situation I would have to do the same.

@ISpyNoPlumPie I’d really love to know why you feel my dad’s death from end stage COPD was a ‘good death’ when he was delirious, struggling for every breath, in utter distress and absolute terrified. Yet my dog’s death, when he spent his last day on earth being fed his favourite foods, going for one last potter around the garden in the sunshine then was taken to the vets, wrapped in his blanket with his family by his side, to be given an injection whereby he passed peacefully in a matter of seconds, is nothing to aspire to.

Nobody CHOOSES to suffer or to be diagnosed with a terminal illness. Capacity is irrelevant in that context. Being alive, being human inevitably involves pain and suffering. None of us can be absolved from pain and suffering.

When the worst thing happens, people need to be able to expresses their wishes, to be cared for, and to be safeguarded against harms (autonomy, beneficence, non maleficence - basic principles of medical bioethics). Remember, patients cannot DEMAND any treatment, our healthcare system does not work like that for lots of good reasons. So again, who decides that someone should die? Who has the power to enact this? And how do we safeguard vulnerable people?

I’d love to know why you think I said that.

@ISpyNoPlumPie you said the animal analogy was the opposite of a good death. In my experience, it was anything but.

I didn’t say that. I said the lack of expressed autonomy would be a bad thing to replicate in terms of what a model for what a “good death” for a human would look like. The comparison between euthanasia/assisted suicide and putting an animal to sleep is beyond nonsense.

Really hope the police will not waste public money prosecuting her. If she can ask for a jury trial no jury should convict her, if it's just a judge what sentence can he give her that is worse than living with the death of her child?

@ISpyNoPlumPie We will have to disagree on that then.

I’m not sure what we’re disagreeing about. Something I didn’t say, or you don’t agree that expressed autonomy is important for a person when they are at the end of their life?

It was forty years ago, she hasn't "offended" since, and she will shortly die herself. I really don't think they will.

👏👏

Perhaps he would have died at the moment anyway. He was terminally ill so it could have been possible. The poor mother dealing with the thought of having ended her child’s life but also relief of stopping the terrible suffering.

I dont get how any emotionally sane person could not understand why she did this, much less so punish her for it. I. Her circumstances I would have done it in a heartbeat.

I can only admire her strength. No one can judge. I hope she found peace.

What a brave brave lady. Reading this brought tears to my eye as I watch my child play.

The law needs changing on this to support in these extreme circumstances.

There was no good for keeping this poor child alive in such pain, actually it’s more like torturing the innocent child. I hope she’s been at comfort with her decision over the years.

In this instance I am of the view that whatever capacity the child had was sufficient to express his wish to end his suffering. It’s nonsense to me to prolong someone’s suffering on the basis they lack capacity to end it. I might view it differently if he had the potential for a different outcome but he didn’t.

It’s not nonsense, capacity is about autonomy, consent and safeguarding. Where people do not have capacity, the default decision is not to subject them to pain and suffering, it’s not either/or.

In this situation, the child said he was in pain, and the mother acted to remove his pain. As I have said earlier, according to the doctrine of double effect, it is permissible to give a fatal dose of pain relief with the intention of relieving pain (not with the intention to end someone’s life). I haven’t expressed an opinion about what the mother did, or euthanasia/assisted suicide. I asked a question around safeguarding vulnerable people in a thread filled with people advocating for the right to be able to end one’s/someone else’s life without any discussion of how we could enact that morally, ethically, or legally.

Where people do not have capacity

An 8 year old might not have the same critical thinking ability as an adult but they do have the ability to make some decisions. They certainly have the ability to identify they are in pain and wish to be freed from it.

I am so so sorry. 💐 I can't imagine your pain.

Religion plays too big a part in this particularly in Scotland.