I don't know how to handle this situation with DD& food

[RenegadeMister]

Without causing a whole host of issues down the line. I'm posting in chat rather than AIBU as I'm feeling a bit sad/sensitive about this issue.
DD (7) is on the 98th percentile for both height and weight. She eats excellent meals, even by MN standards, but I realised the snacking and puddings had got out of hand and started making some subtle but sensible changes- no chocolate/sweets during the week, maybe an ice lolly or sugar free jelly after dinner, knocked off sugary cereal and we've switched to brown bread and pasta. Also increased exercise where possible.
I've never bribed with food, I don't use food as a reward and don't demonise any food. Everything in moderation, just ensuring there actually is some moderation now. She sees me eating healthily, exercising and not eating much if any 'treat' food.
So instead she's sneaking junk. I've found wrappers and I know there's other stuff missing. Simple solution is not to have it in the house- seems a shame, but it's doable. The trouble is it also doesn't teach her anything. I don't want to draw attention to weight but she's noticing she's bigger than other children, it can't be good for her teeth (clean bill of health from the dentist for now) or health and I don't like the sneakiness.
How do I handle this without sowing seeds of unhealthy attitudes towards food/body image?
Other people giving/offering sweets, chocolate, ice cream etc is a whole other issue- it's insidious and everything seems to come back to food!- but I want to start at home. Any tips greatly received!

If she knows there is sugary stuff to eat, she may feel a compulsion to eat it - even if that means sneaking it and breaking rule. If so she probably feels guilty about it. And that might be the start of an unhealthy relationship with food so I think you’re right to worry about it (without letting her know that!)

i still think exercise is your best bet, so I just looked up NHS recommendations for exercise:

1. Children (5-18 year olds): 60 minutes and up to several hours every day of moderate to vigorous intensity physical activity. Three days a week should include vigorous intensity activities that strengthen muscle and bone.

Track it and see if she is really getting enough activity. Could she cycle to school and could you swim with her every weekend? Could you do something with her like Pokémon Go or get her to dig a new vegetable patch and grow radishes (digging is a brilliant form of exercise? Could she go to bed late/have a very short shower instead of a bath so you have time to take her to the park?

i wish you a huge amount of luck with it

Also Op it is going to take a while to change this, so makes some rules for yourself and stick to them, don’t think after a month ‘oh that didn’t work, try something else’.

even healthy’ Upf is pretty bad so I’d have plain yogurt, fruit, nice bread and nuts / dried fruits in the house. Lots of apples. Not much else. Perhaps try some gut friendly foods like kimchi, kefir and saukraut - in a ‘wow what do you think of this?’ Way.

Do you exercise at home ? That could also help.

@Lokshen 2 items per week could work. Some weekend days we're so busy she's not even bothered about having anything, but more often not we've been lured by an ice cream or whatever while out and about.. I've never noticed so much how "treats" are everywhere.

Yes I'm confident she drinks enough, always been pretty good with drinking plain water during the day, no sugar squash with a meal.

@ThirdSpaceFan1 thank you for the advice and the luck! I do think it's the rule breaking that appeals, with seemingly no consequences as I've been reluctant to approach it. She's otherwise a really well behaved child, as far as 7yo's go!
I was worried my OP was getting a bit long so didn't go into as much detail, but yes we walk to and from school every day. We go to the park for about half an hour probably 3/5 days. I don't have her every weekend but the alternates I do, we're either swimming or walking- I took her for a 2hr hilly hike last month and she completed it with ease even after an active morning. She's physically very strong and has good stamina for cardio, I could probably tap into this a bit more if I could find a class that she'd like and fits into our schedule.

@mountaingoatsarehairy yeah I think the bit I've been missing is patience! It'll need time to see results and evaluate.

We do exercise at home, lucky enough to have a good garden space and walks from our doorstep that we make use of.

Her meals, that I provide, are pretty good from a upf perspective. Or any perspective really, I cook from scratch and use whole food, plenty of veg in or with everything and a good balance of all the essentials. It's all the rest of the crap that she's having with and without my knowledge! I've just bagged everything I can see and think of and put it in my room. So we'll see I suppose.

If she's 98 percentile for height and weight it sounds as though she is in proportion, just big for her age.
The science on this shows that overweight DCs are often also prematurely tall. Eventually they stop growing up and just grow outwards, but it can actually affect their final adult height as their increased size triggers puberty early which in turn makes them finish growing younger. Their lower weight/slower growing peers eventually overtake them and continue to get taller having benefitted from a later puberty and the resulting extra years of growth. It is one of the reasons men are taller than women on average: their later puberty means they stop growing at around 18 vs 15 for girls. Girls stop growing around 2 years after they start their period. There was an episode of the Dr Chris & Xand Radio 4 show that explained it very well.

Sounds good @RenegadeMister

I think once you tune into UFP and treat foods you realise that even planning on no treats still means a bunch more treats that we ( am 45+) had as kids. Every trip out has a treat, drinks, cake, ice creams, pizza, it really adds up.

You are doing a bunch of exercise so that is great.

You strike me as overly worried about her weight OP and some of your measures sound overly restrictive. The GP will have her weight and height- they will have needed it to calculate her percentiles. She is the same percentile for weight and height which means she is a normal, healthy weight. She isn’t “big” at all, the GP was right to reassure you and yet you don’t trust them.

So how can you have “I realised the snacking and puddings had got out of hand”? When she is a perfectly healthy weight for her height?

You “…started making some subtle but sensible changes- no chocolate/sweets during the week, maybe an ice lolly or sugar free jelly after dinner, knocked off sugary cereal and we've switched to brown bread and pasta. Also increased exercise where possible.”

I have no objection to eating healthier, but you have also cut the amount of food she eats down while increasing exercise. Did you not know that increased exercise increases hunger so your DD’s will need more food to maintain her current healthy weight and continue to grow as she is a growing child? Not less food?

I really think you need relax a bit. Your perception seems off. So what if she is taller and bigger than other kids- girls will be bigger than boys in this age range anyway- and she is 98th/98th- perfect weight for her height.

She is sneaking treats because you’re not letting her have any. It’s miserable to not have any treats or snacks and there is no reason for you to be so restrictive. You are causing what you fear most- unhealthy attitudes towards her body and food. She is trying to eat intuitively and you are fighting this in her by trying to control food when eating intuitively is the best way to eat and adjust food intake to activity level and age. But this sense can be ruined by having your food controlled either by a family member or a fad diet, and then lead to a lifetime of struggle with food and body image.

This is bollocks. You cannot be “prematurely tall”

Genetics determine when we have growth spurts in height and our potential for height. The amount of food determines how much we can grow upwards when we have the growth spurt. Enough food or extra- and we grow the max that genetics will allow. Too little food, and our growth is stunted so we end up less tall than our genetics would allow.

Puberty is the same length for everyone, it only differs in when it starts. Children that hit puberty later don’t have more years of growing than children who hit puberty sooner. Men end up taller than women due to genetics not having a puberty that starts later.

How many puddings, sweets etc was she having before? I remember when I was young, the kids who couldn't control themselves the most were the ones with the most restrictive parents when it came to sugar. They would go absolutely mad at parties or once we were old enough for pocket money. Forbidden fruit and all that.

Healthy eating and cutting upf is a great thing, but she was on the same height and weight centile, which indicates that she is in proportion.

Thanks @SpiritAdder I appreciate your thoughts, you're correct that I am worried about this; kids can be savage and I don't want her to have the same negative experiences I did at school, especially when it's something I can change.

The GP doesn't have her height and weight- I have her red book and plotted her percentiles myself. The general check the schools do in reception flagged this to me as well but I had the same attitude that she's "in proportion" etc. I had to buy some clothes for her from the Plus range recently and honestly I don't think that is normal or healthy.

I haven't cut treats completely- I think an ice lolly or a fruit jelly is a perfectly acceptable dessert, it's just not the chocolate biscuits/pack of sweets she was having before. These are reserved for weekends now. She has school lunches too which often include a biscuit/cake/bun or whatever so she's not completely without.

Also to be clear I haven't cut food or portion sizes, I've just changed things. So before where it'd maybe be a packet of crisps for an after school snack, it's now some veg sticks, hummus and an oatcake or something. Similar but different! This was actually brought about because she noticed she was still hungry after the crisps, so we talked about why that was and how different foods fuel our bodies. We still have crisps, just not as often.

I'm trying my best to foster a healthy attitude to food, exercise and taking care of our bodies and like pp said it's difficult to ask a child to make these decisions.

@SprigatitoYouAndIKnow daily. Honestly, at weekends, sometimes more. Chocolate biscuit with or after lunch, then something else in the evening. Like I said, it got out of hand. She's not actually overly bothered at parties etc, maybe that will change.

It most certainly isn't bollocks, no matter how much you may want it to be, the information on this can be easily found. I highly recommend listening to the radio programme I mentioned. It doesn't just cover this area of research, and is full of fascinating stuff about our bodies and minds. It has led me down a number of rabbit holes of further reading.
If you have primary age DCs, look around the playground at the tallest in each class - it is very rare they aren't also of, at best, a very 'solid' build. Many are clearly overweight as well as tall. I can only think of one skinny overly-tall child at that age, and he has Marfan's.
There is indeed a maximum height our genetics allow us to grow to that is individual to each of us, but it isn't just poor nutrition that prevents us from reaching it. Overeating in childhood also stunts final height. Yes, puberty takes roughly the same amount of time for all, but puberty doesn't start at the same time for all and an early start means missing out on later years of growing. Girls all start growing at birth, but stop 2yrs after their periods start, so of course children who start puberty earlier stop growing earlier too. Our genetics can affect when puberty begins (eg black girls start puberty earlier than white girls on average), but weight is also a large contributing factor. A girl starting her periods at 10yo will stop growing by 12 or 13, regardless of whether they have reached their genetic maximum height. A girl who starts them at 12yo will finish growing at 14-15, giving a full 2 years of more upwards growth and a better chance of hitting their maximum. Growth stopping a set time after puberty begins is why precocious puberty is a real diagnosable thing and needs medical intervention. The Chris & Xand programme had the really interesting example of how diet and environment affects whether we reach our maximum potential height: identical twins that were separated at birth, one to a Scandinavian country and the other to the US. When they discovered the other existed and met up, the Scandinavian was taller despite their identical genetic makeup. There will be other environmental factors that have caused the difference too, but type and quantity of food play a large part.
Mens' genetics making them taller and their puberty starting later are one and the same.

I also feel like I'm walking a constant tightrope with trying to make good physical and emotional choices for my overweight children (against a background of my own issues with eating).

I don't think there's not much point trying to teach a 7yo about self restraint - I do buy a small amount of "junk food" (like, one multipack of crisps, and a couple of packets of biscuits) and when they're gone they're gone.

Other than that, we eat basically healthily, I don't limit access to fruit or even things like toast or breadsticks. I try not to make a big deal about anything outside of the house, because I can't control that. But I have absolutely no idea if I'm doing it "right"!

My dd is 12 and has always been 98/99th percentile and she's definitely not skinny but she's also not overweight - have you looked at the NHS BMI calculator? My dd has always sat right at the top of the healthy range.

I grew up in a house where everything "naughty" was banned. So my siblings and I used to sneak food. My mum put me on a diet when I was 8 (and weighed me every day) and by the time I was 9 I had an eating disorder I've battled with for for 36 years.

My dd is the fittest person I know, she does something sporty most days, she has her eyes on a professional sporting career and it appears to be a genuine possibility for her.

The food thing is hard. But I've tried to implement guidelines rather than rules - buying chocolate from the corner shop, ok after school but not before. OK once or twice a week but not every day. One thing from the snack drawer after school not three. A focus on balancing food groups and nutrition rather than calories and weight.

Whatever you do make it subtle and focus on health over weight. It's an absolute minefield.

Double posted, editing this one away.

The best way to screw up a relationship with food is to have no control over what you eat. You could give her a choice out of two meals what to cook for the evening meal, or ask for her help to meal plan for a week but probably the best way is to give her a treat ration for the week and say once it's gone there is no more until shopping day. And mean it. You have control over the weeks amount, she has control over the when. You have a treat box too so she can see it's fair, and perhaps give her a choice of which treats that week. She's 7, she's wanting independence and pushing boundaries, so give her some independence within boundaries.

Yes @PickledMumion it's like walking a tightrope! I think it would feel slightly easier if it was just me and what I brought into the house but junk seems to be everywhere- people give her stuff, parties, days out, visiting family and friends as well as Christmas, Easter, birthdays. It creeps in and there's only so much we can eat!

@RNBrie I imagine it's so much more difficult when they're off to the shops on their own and managing this themselves. I don't do the "naughty" and actually try to avoid the language of "treats" etc but it's really tricky to get the balance of foods not being good or bad but some we can't eat all the time. I don't mention calories at all!

I agree @AutumnFroglets and meals are always a choice. The positive about it just being us 2 is we can be pretty flexible with meals. If it's something that isn't already made with veg she can pick what she wants on the side. I'm a firm believer in giving choice takes away so many battles- be that with clothes, order of doing things where possible or food. I'll definitely think again about the treat boxes and how that could work for us.

When mine was teen she'd eat all the crisps and cereal bars I had bought for packed lunches. I ended up locking them away. I felt awful and I still shudder now.

She's 25 now and has put on weight, I have reduced treats in house but of course she buys her own.

I also considered the bag of treats for each child, for the week and when they're gone they're gone. She would have eaten the lot in one day. Maybe some are just made that way. I have always been able to moderate myself.

There isn’t any serious science on your suggested phenomenon of “premature tallness”. The Channel 4 radio show with two Drs that specialise in infectious diseases in the tropics aren’t really authorities on child development so much as talking heads.

Even if there were such a thing, a prematurely tall child would be above the 100th percentile for height as the range of 0-100th percentile defines the range of normal height for a child of a certain age. To be “prematurely tall” they’d have to be above the 100th percentile.

OP’s child’s height is within the normal range for her age, therefore she cannot be “prematurely tall”.

Your suggestion to look at DC on a playground and automatically think of the tallest as prematurely tall and likely overweight is massively unscientific as the height of the tallest DC in Japan will be a lot shorter than the tallest DC in the Netherlands.

Everything else you wrote repeated much of what I said, but you wierdly objected to except for the idea that a child who goes through the puberty growth spurt from age 8-12 instead of from age 12-16 is somehow ‘missing out’ on later years of growth? Only to the same extent that the late bloomer is ‘missing out’ on earlier years of growth. It’s a net zero difference.

Thank you for the updates it is good to know you haven’t cut her daily caloric intake. As a taller girl, she will be teased no matter what. You can’t change her height. I’d keep focussing the teaching, as you are, on good nutrition and exercise for a strong body. I would not worry about her shape.

My kids do the same

They are ten and 7

I don't make a big deal of it - if you do, it'll make them do it more

Just don't make a fuss, or mention it

Both mine were the tallest in the class. They were both born on 98th percentile for height.

Neither were ‘chunky’ but did have bigger skeletons than their peers due to height.

Dd is now 5ft 11 and slim, ds is 6ft 5 and very slim. Both are still taller than most of their peers as young adults. I don’t accept that about taller being fatter. They had tall parents.

Its birth length that counts not how much they eat. Also in general, taller people are bigger, it’s to do with skeleton not fat. I used to work with anthropometrics.

Things were initially going quite well but the school holidays have thrown things out of routine, plus several birthdays/occasions. It really makes me realise how everything seems to be celebrated with junk food!

Only a couple of weeks to go then will get back into the full swing of things. In the meantime I'm aiming for improvement over perfection and plenty of fresh air and exercise. I've also enquired about some additional after school activities. Someone unhelpfully mentioned that she's on the bigger side and it really got to me- for her, myself and my younger self I think.

I haven't listened to the radio show but surely we can do an imaginary scenario to work through the premature puberty question:

Person 1: Puberty starts at 11, period starts at 13, stops growing at 15.

Person 2: Puberty starts at 9, period starts at 11, stops growing at 13.

So if each person in this imaginary scenario grows the same amount DURING puberty,
Person 2 would need to be the same height at 9 as Person 1 was at 11 to grow to the same height. So unless their tallness was a total of two entire year's worth of growth, then the argument that earlier puberty results in shorter people does follow logically.

I don't know if it's true, because obviously if your extra tallness DOES put you as many years ahead in height as it brings your puberty forward then that would actually cancel out.

But I can see the point the PP was trying to make.

My only thought is does she sleep well?

When I'm tired I crave sugary crap or failing that any carbs!

I would try to get her into another sport, girls football or rugby would burn a lot of calories and the coaches might do a bit of focus on healthy eating choices. It could help to build her self esteem too.