Power of attorney, person already has dementia can you get po

[Inthesummertimewhen]

Can you get pow over them?.. Strange situation, house is in fil name but he has dementia and no pow over him.. Mil is fine but sil has pow over her

Sil and mil want to sell the house but apparently a conveyor needs fil to say yes and if they know he has dementia it won't sell... Can pow be obtained please, does any one know?

No, not anyone. They have to have known the signatory for a certain period of time or form specific occupations.

really? You need to get a grip Op About going this route - FIL is either competent to make the decision to sell his home himself or not. If he is currently competent to do that he is competent to do a LPOA to ensure if he looses competency before completion signature is needed his attorney can proceed still. If he’s not competent to make this decision now, he ain’t competent to sign his deeds. that’s it

then you need to apply to courts, as one off court order to sell home or to go full deputyship route.

thsts it.

Point is it was HIS decision to not want POA. You all have to respect that decision no matter just how dumb and short sighted it was. In the absence of someone being mentally competent or having an attorney/deputy through OoG NONE of you can assume to know what he wants, or have legal rights to assume consent for his financial or legal decisions.

it’s tough and his stubbornness and short sightedness leads to all sorts of problems for MIL. but thst is not an excuse to committ a criminal offence.

@SirQuintusAureliusMaximus

I would very much like to think it's impossible but I'm also thinking how would anyone know?.

If one had to legally declare all parties are of sound mind, the onus is on them to declare it but if it isn't why would anyone ask? And again how would they know

@Dartwarbler I totally agree, otherwise anyone can force house sales etc.

If he has been diagnosed on his medical records and you have no POA, then no you can't sell.
You need to go to court and get it sorted.
Also if SIL has POA over the mum, she can steal money.

So basically they will just bully an elderly, vulnerable, ill old man into submission, maybe they need a different approach and hand over to people who are objective, respect everyone's best interests and can come up with a sensible solution that everyone is happy with. Please don't get involved, the more they push the more upsetting it will be. If she won't accept help now what makes people think she will accept it in a flat, she'll still be looking after him. I find it very hard to imagine why anyone thinks there's no other solution that trying to sell up without his consent.

"No, not anyone. They have to have known the signatory for a certain period of time or form specific occupations. "

That is not correct. You seem to be mixing up witnessing a signature with being a passport countersignatory. Your requirements only apply to the latter.

Right, missed that despite looking as you clearly said it was in FIL name. So, I assume it is joint tenancy ? Agian worth confirming . If so this does make is easier to apply to court, but you MIL and FIL would still both need to do individual signatures on deeds so doesn’t get away from issue raised thst by time signature needed it would be criminal offence if FIL no longer competent and it was covered up

i also read, like other poster, thst you were proposing the criminal deceit and fraud. I’m now reading that it’s your SIL advocating this and you’re trying to clarify? This wasn’t clear in your posts at all! - but keep in mind it’s criminal act for you to sit by on sidelines and knowing witnessing a crime and not acting. Yep, I can see the temptation from your dh to take a look the other way, but it has massive ramifications.
also bear in mind thst WHEN FIL goes into home the council can ask to see bank statements etc under asset assessments etc, if FILs money to pay for care becomes limited …the council itself could raise evidence that SIL or even MIL have misused assets thst could pay for care, with legal ramifications. Does SIL and MIL even understand all the rules about care funding and deprivation of assets etc.

The Certificate provider who also signs poa forms either needs to have known the donor for at least 2 years or is acting in a professional capacity

A diagnosis of dementia does not mean you don't have capacity. That's a common misconception. Capacity is task specific. You can have capacity to make this decision but not that one. If you are getting POA then you need an independent witness who can confirm the patient understands the implications of POA. They need to know the person and not benefit from the POA. Sometimes if POA is likely to be contested a GP will do that but will charge to do so. I'm a GP and have done this. When we got one a family friend did it.

@MissMoneyFairy for some reason she reluctant to think about helpers coming into thier current home, but the new flat would be in a retirement block with a warden.

We were discussing witnesses to sign the house deeds stuff not poa.

@Bollindger how could she steal it?

I'm guessing if money was in a joint account?

Fils will, would that still stand, I believe he leaves equally to dh and sil and the gc..

Wardens don't do personal care, you're lucky if they work a few hours a day, some work at several complexes. All they will do is help you move in, the legal paperwork, keep on top of communal bills and maintenance, co ordinate activities, some knock each day just to say hello. You still have to arrange your own private carers, cleaners, shopping, therapists and nurses. Extra care housing is a step down from residential care. Once someone has poa over finances they can easily steal it, take some here and there, add stuff onto the shopping, falsify accounts , if dh thinks his sister is untrustworthy he needs to put a stop to potential abuse.,

@MissMoneyFairy but if there was an emergency or mil needed to go into the hospital over night I assume the warden could assist? Or fil goes out and gets lost?

A will still stands if he had capacity to make it at the time and it was made legally without undue pressure

The will was made several years ago before this decline, but again I wonder how it stands with the main asset bring sold.

If he's likely to get lost then he needs an assessment, care alarm, gps, falls mat, door entry mat and alarm, wardens don't always live on site. His family would probably be down as first responders, isn't that why they want to move to be nearer family, the flat would need to be linked up to a care alarm system. If an emergency happened they can pull the assistance cord, if the warden is on duty they can help but they would need to check if the warden was on duty 24 hrs 7 days a week and some complexes may refuse someone who is a high risk of wandering and suggest a higher level of care. If mil goes into hospital then alternative plans for fil would need to be made if he's not safe on his own.

@MissMoneyFairy that's all very helpful thank you
It's all so much to take in and it's a fast moving situation.

• sil travels an awful lot.

Anything held jointly will pass to mil, like joint bank accounts and property if its in joint names. If he has specified certain amounts to be paid to others she can pay that out if there's enough money. If he dies first and everything goes to mil then she can do what she likes with it.

I was told that GPS can't assess capacity. If the person concerned has the capacity to understand POA then I would advise that you get it done asap.

If you have to go down the deputyship route it can take a long time and you will have to claim expenses back if deputyship is granted.

Usually psychiatrists can assess capacity

Retirement flats are a nightmare, avoid at all costs. As a PP said, they have poor resale value and the family are stuck with service charges. I worked with a family whose mum is in a care home with dementia ( I am a Social worker). They have had to find 500pm from their own pocket, because their mum has no money, to pay the service charges. Flat has been for sale for more than 2 years, now worth about a third of what she paid for it 7 years ago.

As for warden controlled - I haven't come across a scheme that has a warden outside of 9-5 for years, and even then they are often not on the premises. They are often not covered if they are on leave or sick. Their role does not seem to extend beyond sickness management. A lot of their role is taken up with complaints from younger and fitter residents about those with dementia who are discriminated against. We frequently receive calls from wardens saying we 'have' to move someone to a care home, which we can't do without significant evidence.

I would echo PPs concerns that SIL may not be acting in your PILs best interests, in which case, DH needs to step up and ensure due legal processes are followed and refer to Adult SS safeguarding if not. How able is your MIL to understand the negatives of retirement housing ? And do they both understand that if your FIL goes into a care home, they will be required to pay with his assets, including half of his home. (If MIL is still alive, this is paid by SS and reclaimed following her death). If money has been siphoned off to DH or SIL, this is deprivation of assets and legal action would be taken.

DH needs to stop being so relieved that his sister is dealing with it all, and take legal advice.

Good luck.

I worked with a family whose mum is in a care home with dementia ( I am a Social worker). They have had to find 500pm from their own pocket, because their mum has no money, to pay the service charges. Flat has been for sale for more than 2 years, now worth about a third of what she paid for it 7 years ago
@CatherineCawoodsbestie
I dont understand how they (the family) can be liable for a debt incurred by someone else. If either of my parents owes money I cant be held liable for the debt, surely the same applies in this situation?

The Op’s father already has dementia and I made it extremely clear that my father did too. So you were posting in a way I consider to be thoughtless.

Have a nice day.

I think it depends how advanced it is. My DGM got us to do it before she had dementia thank goodness and the lawyer said she had to be certain that my DGM knew exactly what she was doing and what the implications were.

Fortunately she was already comfortable with us helping her with groceries, bills and money.

You need legal advice.