Power of attorney, person already has dementia can you get po

[Inthesummertimewhen]

Can you get pow over them?.. Strange situation, house is in fil name but he has dementia and no pow over him.. Mil is fine but sil has pow over her

Sil and mil want to sell the house but apparently a conveyor needs fil to say yes and if they know he has dementia it won't sell... Can pow be obtained please, does any one know?

No it's his home. If the courts appoint guardianship then they will ask why it needs to be sold and where will he live.

My experience is that even in the early stages of dementia when the person technically has capacity, they are altered enough to be difficult about wanting to discuss it or to sign anything. (Or just scared / in denial).
My mum wouldn’t entertain it, then lost capacity quickly. I ended up applying for Deputyship which was a bloody nightmare, took forever (over 2 years), cost a fortune, and was ultimately granted after my mothers death so was never in use. I would not recommend this route! If you can possibly get POA now that would be much better.

In what ways is mil struggling to cope, do they have any outside support, carers, social services can assess to see what help ,might be available. Do you have a husband supporting his parents.

capacity is time and decision specific….in reality …..once dementia is evident a POA is unrealistic …..i for one would not sign anything

With respect it is nonsense to say 'once dementia is evident a POA is unrealistic'. Typically first signs of dementia are short term memory loss - can't remember names, what they had for dinner that kind of thing but still retain enough capacity to understand and sign a PoA. Mental capacity is the issue and dementia is a progressive disease so there is potentially a long window where there is a diagnosis but retained understanding and capacity.

@Inthesummertimewhen

If he has enough mental capacity to understand what a power of attorney is, and to consent to granting one, he can still do it with a diagnosis of dementia but in order to avoid problems if there is a doubt or he's on the cusp, you are probably better off getting a GP to confirm they think he sitll has capacity to avoid legal challenges and problems later.

If he doesn't have mental capacity and is incapable of either signing a PoA lawfully (because he can't give a valid consent due to his dementia) or of selling the house, then you need to make an application to the Court of Protection

https://www.gov.uk/joint-property-ownership/selling-when-an-owner-has-lost-mental-capacity

The first step is to work out whether he is mentally competent or not. There is no point in applying to the court of protection if in fact he has capacity.

This is correct. A diagnosis of dementia is not the same as a lack of capacity. Someone with dementia can sign a PoA as long as they understand what it means and what the implications are.

My Mum had POA for her partner who has Dementia.
When she died his daughter got a new one, her Dad does have cognative issues but did understand what was happening and what he was agreeing to so it was possible

Interesting, well he definitely has dementia and as many can with it, he can hold a conversation but gets lost out and about still thinks people are alive etc who a re dead.

He seems to have refused poa,

Can they sell the house without his consent?
If they do it on line perhaps?

Mil is desperate to move.

No, that is abuse, it's his house and his name will be on the deeds, no decent solicitor, conveyancer or estate agent would ever agree to this. Why is she so desperate to move. What type of ownership do they have , joint or tenants in common. Even if they do sell it will take months. Where do they plan to move to . Moving an elderly person who doesn't want to move will need more than just putting it up for sale privately on line.

It's not clear if FIL still lives in the house with MIL or if he is in a care home?

Is the SIL you mention their daughter or the partner/wife of one of their own children? Why does he not trust her and why did he refuse to allow her to be named POA when his wife did?

Moving house for someone with dementia could be quite traumatic. How progressive is his dementia so you expect he will end up in care as there is also the question of what MIL will do with any excess funds if she downsizes and whether she intends to gift any money or if it will be used to pay for FIL care?

Would be wise to take legal advice as there is a lot to consider around the decision even though it's also understandable that she may be struggling with caring for her husband and a larger house.

That’s really brutal. I applied for Deputyship for my stepfather via a solicitor. It cost in the region of 2K and we also had to apply for change of trustee on my mum’s will in order to sell the house to pay towards his care home fees. It took about 6 months.

Absolutely not, unless she owns the house in her name only. She needs to apply for Deputyship asap, but as others have said, she may well not get it to enable her to sell the house as this may not be in the best interests of your FIL. Its such a hard situation to be in!

@Soontobe60 but what's to stop her.

I think morally she's got a right to move, she's taking the brunt of care etc and to keeping caring for him she needs to be happy.

Legally what's to stop her selling it on line, how would anyone know?

@LollyLilly... Mil and fil live together yes.

Yes all same /one family, a few years ago sil got into a fix and tried to push fil for money and he stood his ground but she kept trying. He's been very generous with everyone so it's not like he's mean at all but what she wanted he genuinely couldn't give. So maybe this mistrust is still there?

I’m going through this now with a relative. You need to instruct a lawyer to do it for you. Lots of forms to fill in before the application goes to the Court of Protection. People can object etc. Costs around £4k if it’s straightforward but my bill is now over £10k as complex. Takes at least 6 months to be approved.

In this case, does he have capacity to agree to the house being sold and him and MIL moving house? That's the start point here.

You can employ someone independent who is qualified to assess his capacity (check out local solicitors for names).

If FIL also owns the house he would have to sign certain documents to sell it.
If anyone but him signs its fraud without a valid Financial POA and even then they have to be acting in HIS best interests

As others have said, you can get PoA for someone with dementia, if they are deemed to have sufficient capacity to make that decision. If they lack capacity to consent, then you cannot. Rightly so.

I have had PoA for my parents in place for years, and plan to get it in place with dd for me and DH long before we should need it. However, I also have PoA for another elderly relative, and this was put in place after she was diagnosed with dementia but while she still had capacity to make that decision

Might be nitpicking, but I think it's important to point out that you have PoA for someone and not over them. It is about acting on their behalf and in their best interests rather than having power over them.

Incorrect
it’s about the level of capacity for that particular decision rather than a diagnosis.
Although of course if someone’s dementia is advanced they’d be highly unlikely to have capacity to make a decision like that.

I don't think it's nitpicking.
In her first post the op refered to POA as POW, obviously that was a typo but pow is normally an abbreviation for 'prisoner of war'!
(Maybe it was more Freudian slip than typo 😬)

Presumably he'd know when his house got taken away. How do you think she will sell it online, it's his home, it would need a conveyancer, solicitor, survey, it's not like putting a chest of drawers on marketplace. Have you looked into getting them help instead, why is she doing all the caring. If this is a real situation then you need to seek legal advice, why don't you answer the questions about where they intend to live afterwards, how will moving be of any benefit, is the plan for her to sell the house behind his back and move him into a carehome. I'm not surprised he doesn't trust sil if she kept pushing for money. What does your dh think about it all.

@MissMoneyFairy
It's in a very desirable area and has a buyer lined up already.
Mil has been very stubborn re getting help in.

Their current house couldn't be more perfect for retiring but mil is worried because sil doesn't live close by and neither does dh..

They have been looking at small special retirement flats.

It sounds as if FIL has valid reasons for not granting POA to SIL previously so his wishes must be followed now. Do you think SIL may be putting ideas into MIL head in the hope that she may gain financially now from the sale of their house?

Whilst it's an awful situation for MIL to be in and your frustration is understandable, to protect everyone you need independent legal advice. MIL can't force or deceive FIL to sign the sales paperwork if he doesn't want to move, even if in your opinion he doesn't have capacity to make that decision. Imagine if FIL didn't have dementia and he and MIL couldn't agree on selling up, you wouldn't think it was acceptable for her to try and sell it behind his back or coerce him into selling, how is this any different?

If he needs care in the future adult social care will look into finances and MIL will need to show the audit trail for a recently sold house. Do nothing until you have external verification of FIL's capacity then everyone can be assured his interests are protected.

I'm not fond of sil and I don't entirely trust her motives.

Dh tends to see the best in people, he finds this slightly suspicious but I think he's slap greatful that sil is shouldering this burden...

The house is in both their names.

Retirement flats can be very difficult to sell, do sil and dh plan to look after them both, if he is the one who needs help then he could have a free care needs assessment which he might need for wherever they live. What will they do if the small flat isn't suitable in the future. How did they get a buyer lined up already if he didn't agree to sell.,