So they want to replace PIP/DLA money with vouchers?

[moneyinthebinthatsmrtim]

I don't understand it. It is really worrying me.

This payment helps pay for so many things. I doubt these vouchers would cover that, or give the freedom to shop or buy from where you want or need to.

I included DLA because it's really just the child's version of PIP. Eventually, my profoundly disabled child will be an adult and will have to be on PIP

Is there really any truth in this? I can't see any articles directly quoting Labour or Conservative. I might just be in such a worry that I have missed that bit

Apologies if there is another thread on this too. I am happy to get this one taken off if that's the case

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/pip-disability-benefits-plan-rishi-government-critics-b2537209.html

Labour have not ruled out issuing vouchers or one off payments for PIP.
They have not tried to change the ESA to UC deadline, or said anything about Carer's Allowance.
They have said they will be the party for working people.

I'd go by their actions, not their silence.

When did Labour say that they haven't ruled put the voucher proposal? Do you have a link?

The voucher proposal is unworkable.

Who said the voucher proposal is unworkable.
The consultation is ongoing, nothings out yet.

Who said the voucher proposal is unworkable

Any one with half a brain knows it is a populist notion that has not been thought through properly.

Also, George Osborne tried to make some similar changes to those set out in this consultation (providing aids instead of cash for example).

He soon back tracked when he got his arse handed to him from all sides Labour, disability charities, his own party (including IDS of all people!). Various Tory MPs were kicked out of the charities they were patrons of.

But even Osborne didn't go as far as vouchers IIRC.

Anyway, the whole thing caused an almighty stink and the proposals were kicked into the long grass until Sunak in his infinite wisdom resurrected the issues.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/17/tory-rebels-osborne-disability-benefit-cuts-just-not-acceptable

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/22/george-osborne-refuses-to-apologise-for-disability-benefits-cut-plan

Labour will obviously remember all this and won't want the storm of controversy so early in their administration, I bet. It will all be kicked into the long grass again.

I'm just getting sick and worried about it I hope it don't put the voucher

Watching the debate tonight people are utter fools if they don't think Labour are planning something similar. They're certainly not denying it.

My local Labour MP has been very ambivalent about whatever they plan to do with benefits. One thing she did say was that there should be incentives to work... and I read that as sanctions.

I concur. We already have an incentive to work: earning money.

Labour is definitely going to reform ESA. It is in their manifesto. It is making me hesitant to vote for them, but if the Tories get in it will be appalling for disabled people. So no choice, really.

I bet my house on Labour not introducing PIP vouchers though.

So, no Party then has said the voucher system is unworkable then.

A similar system has been adopted in other countries
Vouchers, grants, catalogues etc.

Until the consultation is over no one has said they would not make alternative arrangements for supporting disabled people. Including with vouchers

Its clear they will all look to make changes given the predicted future bill.

I didn't say any party has said the PIP voucher proposal is unworkable. But as I said, it clearly isn't. The admin would outweigh savings.

If Liz Kendall tried to introduce such a scheme she would face an uproar. So my prediction is that Labour will not touch a PIP voucher scheme with an extra long bargepole. They will go for ESA reform, but there will be opposition.

Let's see what happens. It will be interesting to revisit this thread in a couple of years.

The purpose of PIP and DLA is to pay for the extra costs that manifest from being disabled. For a lot of disabled people this requires them to employ people not purchase equipment. Until they have a way around this a voucher system will not work.

Voucher systems have been tried in other countries. They have been evaluated and shown not to work well. Even then, they have been part of a mixed method system, with cash forming part of it. I linked to a paper a ways back in the thread.

Yes a mix of systems
That is exactly what is being evaluated as part of the consultation.
Along with which conditions could be better managed and how in terms of finances ( in what form ) , support etc.

@IAmNotASheep if vouchers have been shown not to work well in a mixed system, why would anyone with half a brain go for such a system?

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see some changes:

1. No reevaluations for conditions known to be degenerative only
2. Better funding for specialist mobility aids so that people need not self fund 100% of a bespoke wheelchair (I know that they need not at present, but in our area the waiting list is 2 years!)
3. Support to get people who are not working into suitable work, and keep them there - this would include incentives for employers to retain someone whose condition fluctuates and for employers to provide completely flexible roles specifically for disabled people. including hybrid working

No doubt there are others. But none of these things would save money in the short term (though they would in the long term).

i dont really understand where people are saying labour will reform esa
im on esa income based and waiting for the letter to switch so wont many on esa eventually go onto universal credit in the next couple of years?

im guessing people are talking about contribution esa that they will tinker with or have i got it all wrong

Yes everyone on income related ESA will be switching to UC from next year but it is the work capability assessment process that they are looking at changing/ reforming.

Re your first para
why would anyone use the mixed system

Everything is being looked at to make the system affordable due to a predicted unaffordable rise in PIP over the next 5years.
They have no choice but to move away from the current system that the country can’t afford.
Im guessing it’s either that or some conditions that people have are removed completely from PIP
Clearly, something has to give

The problem of too many PIP claimants has two logical solutions.
One is to tighten eligibility criteria so fewer people qualify.
The other is to improve people's lives and working conditions so they don't face the difficulties with everyday living that necessitate a claim.

The first will plunge some vulnerable people into poverty.
The second will cost money initially but will lead to higher tax take in the long run (as disabled people with adequate appropriate support are able to do more work).

Why is it beyond the bounds of political possibility that an incoming government could drop punitive measures for un/underemployed people and not only make work pay but make work better?

The carrot always works better than the stick, but it takes compassion and ingenuity to work with employers to find creative ways to bring people into the workforce.

The main barrier is the complexity of moving in and out of work as conditions fluctuate. It's a big risk taking a new job, knowing that a relapse means no income/ssp and probably job loss, then 5 weeks of waiting before benefits kick in. A flexible employment environment would allow people to work as much as their health permits, and a flexible benefit system would make sure people don't fall into poverty because of fluctuating health.

Why whenever anyone says the system needs to change, does anyone rarely mention the way people are assessed? 70% win at tribunal. Clearly the system is flawed and that needs to change.

@imimtryingtoleave The original ESA is now known as legacy ESA, which is not a contribution base.

When you are moved to U.C, we need to remember that U.C. is an umbrella name for all the benefits known as jobseekers, working tax credit, etc.

On U.C, the sick benefit part is known as Special ESA 🙄 the groups are the same as legacy ESA, which are WRAG and WRAGLCW (Support group)

From this September, those on basic ESA will start to be transferred to U.C Special ESA yo be completed by the end of 2025.

Those on more than 1 element of additional components of ESA (such as the SDP) will not start being transferred until 2028 onwards.

I hope that helps

im on income based esa support group and child tc son turns 18yrs in december doing a levels till june 2025 i thought i would be switching this summer/autumn 2024

thanks

sorry also get the sdp

I don’t recall a question on the consultation about that but of course that doesn’t mean it could also be up for change.
If they are looking at ‘conditions’ rather than how individuals experience/ live with their conditions then it could easily follow that the method of assessment becomes far more streamlined.

ie If you are diagnosed by your GP as having X then all people with X receive
the same support whether financial, voucher, catalogue, group therapy or exercise classes, or a combination of various methods of support.

The current consultation,however, is there not to look at how many people win at tribunals but how to reduce the cost of disability benefits going forward.

I agree absolutely although that’s why we have the saying to save for a rainy day. Benefits rarely equal pay so to save just in case has historically always been the way people have got by when there’s no work
In many countries this is very normal.

I appreciate many people can’t but if they lose their job they will be on less money on benefits so why not save when things are good.