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Elderly Hoarding Neighbour - how do I understand/help

30 replies

mysparkleismissing · 07/06/2024 14:18

Hello All,

We have a neighbour, she's in her late 70s with limited mobility - she has family but they don't talk (complicated relationship) and the have limited contact.
I offered her some her with errands/shopping in the bad weather a couple of years ago - and we now do her shopping every week.

She sometimes asks us for lifts to doctors or help hanging washing out, etc.

We had to call the paramedics out a few months ago as she fell and we couldn't help her get up and they've logged a request for some support to get her house in order - not sure she's heard anything about that yet but she then reached out to me to ask for some help in sorting her house a bit as it is cluttered and it isn't helping her mental health.

She has a lot of STUFF in her house and although we've done some work to help it be less of a danger underfoot for her to get around a bit safer its still a big project.

I find it hard to understand as I'm not sentimental at all, I don't hold onto items 'just in case' or because it reminds me of a moment in time.

She wouldn't let me take a kettle to the charity shop at the weekend because she wanted a spare - she already has 2 spare kettles.
She doesn't want to let go of old clothes that are 4 sizes too small.

At the weekend I went to help her when she asked, I wait for her to ask me when she's ready for some help and let her take the lead as much as I can, she said she keeps all this stuff cos she doesn't speak to her family.

She is really grateful for the help with her shopping and with the help tidying up.

I LOVE the programme sort out your life* *and I am trying to be sympathetic and understanding but I wondered if any of you wise ones could share any insight at all.

Thanks for reading.

OP posts:
Beautifulbythebay · 07/06/2024 14:23

My fil volunteered for the fire service - they visit all sorts of people including elderly to check their home is escapable and give out smoke alarms. Contact the local fire station and see if they offer this service. Their warnings may carry more weight than yours...

LakeTiticaca · 07/06/2024 14:24

Hording is a complicated condition that needs professional help. It's good that you are helping her but you can only do so much. Have you been in touch with adult social care?

MrsPelligrinoPetrichor · 07/06/2024 14:26

With the best will in the world,it's not your business how she keeps her house. Unless she asks you to help declutter then it's not really anything to do with you.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

DistinguishedSocialCommentator · 07/06/2024 14:27

Hi

Hoarding varies and can not just be a danger "under foot" but the means of especape in afire or people coming in to aid. Hoarding does make a fire worse, speak more quickly

I've been to homes where there was severe hoarding but others can do little if person declines help

you person is wanting help - try age concerned, soco services and the fire service for guidance if you wish and they should be aware re whats on offer help wise

Isseywith3witchycats · 07/06/2024 14:28

£Would organising what she has help to make her house more accessible as in vacumn bags for the clothes so they take up less space hoarders do not think like us to her these are valid reasons for keeping stuff also point out to her that her family will just probably throw the whole lot away at least she can choose where stuff goes

mysparkleismissing · 07/06/2024 14:31

MrsPelligrinoPetrichor · 07/06/2024 14:26

With the best will in the world,it's not your business how she keeps her house. Unless she asks you to help declutter then it's not really anything to do with you.

I know, it's her house - she has been asking me for help.

OP posts:
Sarah2458 · 07/06/2024 14:31

LakeTiticaca · 07/06/2024 14:24

Hording is a complicated condition that needs professional help. It's good that you are helping her but you can only do so much. Have you been in touch with adult social care?

I agree. I have experienced a similar situation and it really became perilous as the years wore on, for both the neighbour and for us.

Problem is that people are entitled to live how they want until it becomes a situation where their of way of living is becoming a danger to life.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to log it with social services and / or her GP but until it becomes critical there probably isn't that much they will do, bar send the fire brigade round. But at least it will be noted that you had a concern at X point in time.

CloudPop · 07/06/2024 14:33

MrsPelligrinoPetrichor · 07/06/2024 14:26

With the best will in the world,it's not your business how she keeps her house. Unless she asks you to help declutter then it's not really anything to do with you.

From the OP:

but she then reached out to me to ask for some help in sorting her house a bit as it is cluttered and it isn't helping her mental health.

Dartmoorcheffy · 07/06/2024 14:35

As she's asked you for help, but is struggling to actually get rid of things. I would try getting a load of cardboard boxes. Pack all the clutter into them and stack them in a room that isn't used. And the suggest getting one box out at a time and sorting it with items to keep, recycle, or dump.

CloudPop · 07/06/2024 14:35

It's a very difficult situation, and honestly I'm not sure how much you are going to be able to help. If she wanted to get rid of stuff you could assist, but if she can't bear to be parted with her things there's a limit to what you can do.

Good for you for being a good neighbour. We could all do with doing a bit more of that kind of thing.

Beautifulbythebay · 07/06/2024 15:10

Maybe take round some charity bags and spell out some people have a lot less than her and can she fill those bags for them?

merryandbrightdelight · 07/06/2024 15:12

Beautifulbythebay · 07/06/2024 14:23

My fil volunteered for the fire service - they visit all sorts of people including elderly to check their home is escapable and give out smoke alarms. Contact the local fire station and see if they offer this service. Their warnings may carry more weight than yours...

I agree with this, they will be a huge help

olderbutwiser · 07/06/2024 15:24

Frankly you haven't got a hope in hell of 'curing' her of her hoarding/clutter, which will be deep rooted in family/mental health issues. While I love Sort Your Life Out, it does give an impression that hoarding is just a bit of untidiness out of control and nothing that a willing pair of hands a few bin liners won't sort out. It absolutely isn't - your kettle story bears this out. Even mental health professionals struggle to handle it, and the amount of input needed to change people is massive and rarely available.

You are doing quite enough already by doing her shopping.

Personally I would swerve anything to do with helping her with decluttering unless it's taking stuff to the charity shop/tip that she has sorted herself. Maybe encourage her to get a falls button, and make sure she uses that if she falls and do not get sucked into lifting her yourself.

You can also raise a safeguarding concern with social services (local council website) and Fire visits will help your safety as well as hers.

mysparkleismissing · 09/06/2024 09:48

Thanks everyone for your understanding.
Definitely some ideas here. I've suggested the storage bags that you use the hoover with also will look at getting some packing boxes so the things she wants to keep can be tidied and organised.
I'll look into s/s and the fire service as well.
She has realised it is an issue now and wants the help so that's a great first step.

OP posts:
Elleherd · 09/06/2024 13:36

Because you want to help her, I'm happy to comment, sorry about the length!

I have hoarding disorder, grew up in a squalor hoard, and have worked with others with HD. It's possible to help someone who wants and is ready for help, but it will always be on their terms because it is their MH causing issues, and self aware or otherwise, most instinctively protect their MH from further damage.

The thing to understand most, is that 'the stuff' and the 'relationship to the stuff' is the symptom of an underlying MH condition, not the actual condition. It is that symptom that people (both with HD and those around them) find distressing and troubling, not their condition. So trying to remove the symptom without dealing with the condition, always hits trouble.
The body and mind puts out symptoms for a reason. They are there to demand you pay attention to what you have going on that isn't so obvious.
Anorexia is a good example. The symptoms are awful and will kill if untreated, but the symptoms aren't actually the cause. Forced feeding isn't a cure.

I grew up in a squalor hoard and it's unsurprising that the presentation of my own HD (I thought I'd escaped, but no) is an opposing sub group: highly organized, tidy, and at one time obsessively OTT clean. (some might argue I still am, but now days I'm much closer to 'normal standards' than I ever have been)
People often don't recognize the presentation as hoarding because the symptoms doesn't yet impact on others lives.

Despite what those making money from it claim, hoarding as a disorder isn't really how much stuff, how it's kept, where it's kept, or what it looks like.

It's properly defined by how extreme the difficulty and distress is caused to the individual when attempting to part with an excess of possessions if they need or want to.
Some situations look like hoarding and aren't, others look they aren't, but are.

People say you can't organize and clean clutter, but I have gone into several hoarded homes (including severe) and done exactly that. When you go in with a 'nothing leaves unless you ask me to remove it' attitude, you will have far more success (including things leaving voluntarily.)
Being trustworthy is huge. Many people with HD have suffered abuse and or huge losses and have learned trusting others is a dangerous painful path.

There's no magic wand with "report, log it, SS, Fire brigade." It's an MN chicken myth! If there was, all the desperate self aware hoarders, just wouldn't exist.

IME the better end of SS will try and make her pay them for someone to come and clear/clean and if she has no funds but owns, put a lien on her home.
It isn't a route I'd advise as it usually results in the person severing arrangements and becoming introverted and less trusting. It rarely ends well.

Talk to your local FB. Some are brilliant and sensitive and really helpful, others can cause more harm than good. All will come out and put basic alarms in, not all will respect her home and property while doing it sadly, and this can backfire. All will put a flag on her address if they feel it is severe. Most have a protocol they will follow regarding SS. If she is a home owner and of sound mind, she can refuse any and all of it. If she doesn't own she has less rights.
Actual hoarders will take note of reassessing planning escaping fire, and prevention, but rarely will get rid of stuff to facilitate it IME. People do it when there is something they value more. It is rarely their own safety or lives.

She's asking for help, and you're up for helping. She's recognized a link between her need to keep 'stuff' and poor family relationships. That's excellent!

You can't cure her, and shouldn't try to, but she may have figured out enough to be ready for change. But probably only so much.
She's keeping 'a perfectly good kettle' as a spare. Perfectly logical when you have a fixed dwindling income and CoL all around. The question is how many of what are being kept? Are they all things that are likely to eventually see use? Are they deteriorating waiting to be used? What condition are they in, and have modern equivalents improved or gone downhill? (Ie: new irons are better, but high powered Miele vacuums now irreplaceable)

Updating her knowledge while acknowledging her better choices (even if accidental) is healthy.

Sometimes people superficially justify ie 'it's a spare' and discover when they try to get rid off that really it's a 'it represents X' bond. Until those things are unpicked people are likely to get defensive/irritated including with themselves.

She knows she has too much, but hasn't placed a literal value on space, or being able to move around easily. She may discover that sudden space doesn't make her comfortable, so don't go to fast. Adjustment takes time.

Very often people are clinging to the younger more vital, defined by work/parenthood/relationships self. So you'll find wardrobes packed with business suits, evening wear and heels, with no chance to use them again. Letting go means coming to terms with a diminishing future.

If you want to help her, go for it, but gently, and keep your boundaries in place.
You are doing (potentially) a nice and decent thing. You aren't responsible for it's success or failure, or her. Go into it reminding yourself of that. Organizing clutter always makes more mess initially. Always leave things in a way that doesn't leave it worse, then whatever happens you can always withdraw, temporally or permanently.

Sympathy and empathy go a long old way. No one wakes up thinking wouldn't it be lovely to develop a hoarding problem? Many hate themselves for it.

Gently understanding what the other persons understanding of rubbish, not rubbish but unneeded, and what they want to keep and why, is a good starting point. Accept there may be big gaps between theory and reality. Keep things light, and if appropriate, humorous.

Reduce danger. (including for you) Look at trailing wires, overloaded plug boards plugged into overloaded sockets, items too close to cookers etc.

Vacuum bags have their uses but usually eventually re-inflate, so bear in mind that you may be creating future chests of drawers that wont open etc. If you put them in boxes, don't put them at the bottom, re-inflation causes the boxes on top of them to be unstable/fall etc.

If you are going to box stuff, use identical boxes wherever possible, tape them with parcel tape, (not folding flaps into each other) and leave gaps between them and walls, and stacks for good ventilation. Keep weight very low. Stacks collapse and are dangerous to older people, make sure what could fall is light enough. Damp or failure to heat can make this happen faster than most expect.

Have her invest in see through sacks and bag the contents, prior to boxing. It massively reduces the potential for infestation.

Put like with like, and label on two top corners. If it's too much to put whole contents on both labels, put an arrow on the second one pointing to where the info is. Always put the label at the top of the box in the same place. It automatically says which way up the box is. (when boxes get taken on and off stacks and put back the wrong way round this stuff makes a lot of difference)

Generally I try and keep things in the 'correct' room, but sometimes that's not possible. But if someone can see they have 18 boxes of crockery, cutlery, and kitchen implements, in their kitchen rather than it being distributed over the house, then the idea they may have more than they need for a lifetime, starts to be easier to see, acknowledge and address.

Space can cause liminal discomfort to those used to being surrounded. What looks like great progress to you can be viewed very differently by others.
Focus them on organization and cleaning gains, and if needed place boxes into spaces and move them back gradually.

Personally I color code and stick a chart by the light switch as a place less likely to get covered. (ie Dark blue - clothes, mid blue - bedding, light blue - curtains)
I'm a little excessive over organization, but have learnt that what is excessive in someone like me, is highly useful to a chaotic hoarder trying to get a hold on their situation.

Your ability to access dumps, additional rubbish, recycling, charities/ shops, check values, and physically do things is incredibly valuable to someone without it. But familiarity can breed contempt. Nip in the bud if needed.

If the place is dusty wear a mask or tie a scarf at least, you don't want it all in your lungs. Shut the door afterwards, neither does she. Personally I wear gloves. Too many surprises lurk for me not too. If it's really serious especially regarding mold, fridges, disposal of dead critters etc use proper protective gear and filtered masks. Your health matters too.
Good luck to you both, what ever level you choose to assist her.

DisplayPurposesOnly · 09/06/2024 13:43

Bloody brilliant, as ever @Elleherd 👏

Telemichus · 09/06/2024 13:43

Seriously recommend the overcoming compulsive hoarding podcast.
it is not going to give you a fix for your current situation, but is much more insightful than eg sort your life out.
as pp have said , this is a really complex situation.
its good she has asked for help, but you need to recognise your own limits as well. You are not going to fix this by yourself, but you could help make her house a little more functional. Or you might decide, that actually, this isn’t your battle, and that is also okay. You have yo own life.

QueensOfTheVolksAge · 09/06/2024 14:05

@Elleherd What a lovely, helpful and non judgemental comment. Thank you so much for all of that deep insight 💕

Tracker1234 · 09/06/2024 14:16

I am going to put a different view of this. My DF was a hoarder. Think not being able to get through front door hoarding. Almost floor to ceiling clutter, old newspapers, his late Mother’s furs and evening wear in a dusty falling to bits wardrobe which you could only get to by squeezing yourself past all sorts.

Father didn’t really see it. Got the FB in and he threw them out. GP offered some assistance but there was a charge so he didn’t go ahead. Eventually a charity offered to do it and he complained and complained he couldn’t find anything.

In the end it got completely ridiculous and due to his age (mid 80’s) he reached out. He had to go into care home but not before we spent thousands on getting it cleared (£10k). We tried within the family to make a start but it didn’t seem to make a difference and I will be honest my Father was often lazy and selfish. He lived on his own and would far rather impose himself on others then do any clearing up or god forbid cleaning. His kitchen was a complete disgrace and he slept on a camp bed stained with urine.

Of course the difference is that he ASKED for help and as he was going into care it had to be completely cleared. But it’s not only mental health issues.

The neighbours sadly cheered when he left because this was an upmarket part of London and his house looked awful. And don’t get me started on the garden and the rats..

JoJothegerbil · 09/06/2024 14:34

My DM is a hoarder. Over the years me and my DB have sorted and cleared, when she'll let us but the hoard soon goes back to ho it was. DM has had help from the council via adult social care in the form of 6 months of weekly support to clear, but I haven't really noticed much of a difference.

Sometimes you just can't help. I've given up now, although I will go in and clean the bathroom when I help her to have a bath. The rest of it is just too much of an overwhelming task. She's mid 80s, in poor health and I'm dreading the actual clear up if she has to go into a home.

You could try social services, but I think your neighbour would have to agree to this first. The fire brigade came in a did an assessment for DM, but it didn't seem to scare her into sorting anything out. It is a deep rooted mental health condition which is very hard to treat unfortunately.

treacletoffee23 · 11/06/2024 11:34

Elleherd
fabulous empathetic advice ❤️

Isthisasgoodasitis · 11/06/2024 12:33

mysparkleismissing · 07/06/2024 14:18

Hello All,

We have a neighbour, she's in her late 70s with limited mobility - she has family but they don't talk (complicated relationship) and the have limited contact.
I offered her some her with errands/shopping in the bad weather a couple of years ago - and we now do her shopping every week.

She sometimes asks us for lifts to doctors or help hanging washing out, etc.

We had to call the paramedics out a few months ago as she fell and we couldn't help her get up and they've logged a request for some support to get her house in order - not sure she's heard anything about that yet but she then reached out to me to ask for some help in sorting her house a bit as it is cluttered and it isn't helping her mental health.

She has a lot of STUFF in her house and although we've done some work to help it be less of a danger underfoot for her to get around a bit safer its still a big project.

I find it hard to understand as I'm not sentimental at all, I don't hold onto items 'just in case' or because it reminds me of a moment in time.

She wouldn't let me take a kettle to the charity shop at the weekend because she wanted a spare - she already has 2 spare kettles.
She doesn't want to let go of old clothes that are 4 sizes too small.

At the weekend I went to help her when she asked, I wait for her to ask me when she's ready for some help and let her take the lead as much as I can, she said she keeps all this stuff cos she doesn't speak to her family.

She is really grateful for the help with her shopping and with the help tidying up.

I LOVE the programme sort out your life* *and I am trying to be sympathetic and understanding but I wondered if any of you wise ones could share any insight at all.

Thanks for reading.

Contact adult services and raise concern she needs help you are not qualified to give …

Welshmonster · 11/06/2024 14:01

Get an assessment from
adult social care to see what they can put in the house like handrails etc to help reduce falls etc.
hoarding is hard

try and group things together in the room they would be used in. Eg all the kitchen stuff in the kitchen. It’s hard but they may start to see they don’t need spares for the spares.

Summerhillsquare · 11/06/2024 14:03

Trauma, specifically loss. Why would she want to lose anything else?

Polly7122 · 11/06/2024 19:11

Your a great neighbour helping her out. Am 53 disabled with limited mobility and have various adaptive things in the house including stool,shower seat,rail and toilet frame,I also have an alert system in place in case I fall,if you speak to social services and speak to someone regarding help in the house. Hopefully this will help her out,keep being such a nice person the world needs more people like you x