Thread 47 Sunak : The Ship of Fools sails on

[DuncinToffee]

The countdown to the General Election continues

Previous thread https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5082182-thread-46-sunak-dont-rain-on-our-parade?page=40&reply=135651872

Yes. Some names I know are "friends of the thread"

The thing that struck me about the debate was that Sunak was better prepared. I saw an interview with Clegg’s comms guy from 2010 and he said they spent days rehearsing, recording and reviewing his performance. They kept at it until he was flawless. Starmer would have benefited from that.

That yougov poll is misleading. I'd like to know how it chose the 1500 or so people that took part, and while it shows the percentage of the previous Conservative voters, it doesn't do the same for Labour.

In my house Starmer came out on top, Sunak showed his true colours and they were not good. I wouldn't trust him further than I could throw him (not far), and I certainly don't want him representing me any longer than he already has.

The debate was really badly managed. Sunak was allowed to shout over everyone and we learnt very little as a result. He's a disgrace to the country.

Well who knows what difference this first debate will make to anything 🤷🏻‍♀️

Knowing Sunak's political ability it will probably see a slide in his popularity, everything else he has done has.

This is exactly what my husband said last night. He's been trained to wait his turn, he does need to be a bit more assertive with his point and correct Sunaks assertions about tax etc.

What a shit show that debate was though! The format was terrible, big questions with not enough time to answer and the moderator was bloody awful. Came away from it feeling annoyed more than anything else.

Sunak may have 'won' that particular battle by shouting the loudest but he has not yet won the war.

Cat tax as I haven't posted before! She's grumpy too!

This is handy for refuting the made up claim about taxes.

www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jun/04/reality-check-how-do-the-leaders-claims-in-tv-debate-stack-up

Beautiful cat!

My cat giving ne daggers as I haven't fed her yet!

I was watching 8n my room and ds came in on the way to bed and asked "what is Rishi Sunak shouting about"

How did Sunak do better on taxes? He LIED. He should have been challenged more.

The moderation was awful. Keir should have pulled him up on that earlier - but when he tried to respond to it, the moderator moved on.

I'd like to know how YouGov selected too. I was asked and filled in a "pre" survey and then stood down a couple of hours before. Not sure how they count me in terms of voting intention: I will be voting LD because I want a Labour government.
I felt overall the debate was frustrating. It favoured Sunak because it was all (the same) soundbites and we all know it is easier to present simple soundbite "solutions" than nuanced, workable ideas.
All this to say - hello! Long, long time lurker and felt safer here during the debate than on the other threads. No cats, alas.

How many people not in Rish! (or Keirs) constituency are going to change their vote based on this ? In real numbers. not Express stylee fluffybucks.

I suspect the debate won't have changed many votes either way. People would vote Tory will cling to the tax claims and think Starmer wasn't strong enough. People who would vote Labour will think Sunak was tetchy and aggressive and hate the Tories current performance.

That's the point that Niall Paterson (@skynewsniall) made on Twitter: A reminder that whilst you’ve been frothing at a televised debate, most people have not been.

While we might be geeks really interested and concerned about what is going on, most people are not so politically engaged more fool them

Hi gehen welcome to the thread!

I've just seen on BBC Breakfast that the senior civil servant at the Treasury that supposedly produced the £2,000 extra tax figure that Sunak (and other Conservatives) repeatedly used, wrote to Labour 2 days ago to say that it included additional assumptions beyond those formally announced by Labour and should not be used in the way that the politicians are using them - a fact that they had already reminded the politicians

But the political fact is that they've lied about misrepresented the "Treasury civil servant stamp of authenticity" but it doesn't matter because they've got the £2,000 figure to stick in people's heads

Starter should have refuted it more quickly, even if - especially if - it meant talking over Sunak.

I watched it but was doom scrolling at the same time...
Initial thoughts were the same as many on here - that Sunak had definitely been practicing and had learnt his lines pretty well. First half he shouted, interrupted, talked over everyone and nearly every sentence involved the (completely made-up) £2000 tax jibe.
w
Starmer, not unexpectedly, was more measured, polite, listened to the moderator and didn't defend enough. His answers weren't especially illuminating or inspirational, but he did mostly attempt to answer the questions. Should have been more forceful but that's not his style.

Julie Etchingham was not in control in the first half. She seemed to cut Starmer off and then let Sunak rant on and on. Second half she was slightly better but still seemed more challenging towards Starmer and didn't let him give rebuttals to Sunak whereas she continued to "let" Sunak carry on talking over Starmer - but that's probably my bias showing...

DH and I were musing that the debates possibly need a really bolshy (Paxman style?) moderator and wondered whether female moderators have the power in their voices to effectively control these 'debates'. (Not being sexist just pragmatic!!) But thinking back to the Trump/Biden debates - no one could shut DT up so 🤷‍♀️

Savanta Poll

ITV Debate Savanta snap poll, conducted after event

Finds Starmer beat Sunak by 44% to 39%. Starmer seen to have best answers on all issues, incl immigration, NHS and economy - with narrowest lead on defence. And voted most honest, calmest & most thoughtful

Who won the debate:

Starmer (44%)
Sunak (39%)
Don't Know (17%)

1,153 UK adults, 4-5 June

I think someone like Victoria Derbyshire would have had a firm handle on things.
A fact checker would have been useful.

Sunak relying on faulty impartial calculations-

EXCLUSIVE

The chief Treasury civil servant wrote to Labour two days ago saying that the £38 billion/£2,000 tax attack “should not be presented as having been produced by the civil service”

He said he had reminded ministers of this

x.com/hzeffman/status/1798252445321343456?s=46&t=Uw4lJNwxFZFnX0Xs3doHYg

It's a nice day for it today.

I so wished we could vote Jezza out but he dumped us, grrrr

Here she is last night

https://x.com/Zero_4/status/1798110508723143158

Victoria Derbyshire pulls apart Sunak’s claim that a Labour govt will raise taxes by £2000

“I’m going to pull you up on that Claire Coutinho. The calculations are made by Tory SpAds, they’re political appointees & that is misleading to voters and very disrespectful”

The letter for those not on twitter