If you could decide how much people get in benefits

[OneLemonOrca]

There are benefit bashing threads being posted often, with complaints that certain people on benefits can afford a better lifestyle than them when they work, and that it is being made into a life style choice?
So if you could decide, I am just wondering how much you think benefit claimants should receive in certain circumstances or what their money should or shouldn’t be able to pay for, to get a general idea of what mumsnet thinks is “right”.

@schloss

"For this the amount earned tax free should be raised and to take it even further I would like to see a flat rate tax system."

Personally, I'd pretty much abolish the tax free threshold - e.g. set it around £2k.

Far too many people go out and vote for 'free stuff' safe in the knowledge that they won't have to pay the associated taxes. If everybody saw their wages being hit to pay for those things, I think they'd be much more likely to vote responsibly.

All that would do is mean people would have to claim more benefits as their salaries would be even less. There would then be calls for higher salaries, which would increase inflation.

Having no or such a low tax threshold would discourage working even more.

To lower peoples reliance on benefits, working has to be more beneficial to claiming benefits which means you have to allow people to keep more of their salary before they pay tax.

I think UBI would have much more of a positive effect in some areas. I think a lot of people who would go into minimum wage jobs and are on benefits, often dont, or do minimal hours because what they earn is directly taken off Universal Credit so financially they are barely better off. But if every penny they earnt was extra, I think you would have a higher incentive to work.

In addition I think you have many people on disability benefits where it isnt as clear cut as they can work or not work. Some have variable health where they could do small amounts of work but so many are scared to try it as if it fails, the system is so hard that its not worth the risk. If they had a universal income to fall back on and wouldnt be penalised for trying, I think more would give it a go as they could try.

I actually have a real life example of this knowing a friend who had chronic pain and struggled on our benefits system and wanted to try work but if they failed, they knew it would be an uphill battle to get back on disability benefits. They were married to someone from a different country and to start again, they actually moved. They now work full time as they had the ability to try and it worked thankfully. But over here they felt so trapped, they never had the ability to try without feeling they were putting their whole family at risk. I highly doubt they are alone in this.

That’s ridiculous. Why should an adult be able to stay at home and claim benefits? Both parents should have to earn £1400. It’s right that single parents should have to earn it but so should both parents in a couple.

So basically full time if on NMW for both parents? So where are these childcare places going to come from?

I've said this on other threads around people with mental health issues and who are ND and work -

The government and employers can put all the policies in place they like for reasonable adjustments, but until society is genuinely more inclusive and don't behave like the world has ended because a cashier with autism doesn't make eye contact, and 'ruins' their experience of buying a pint of milk, it's not going to work (for example ).

The thread on here a month or so ago where an Asda volunteer annoyed the OP, it was established it was probably someone ND or with mental health issues as Asda run a scheme, and the consensus was she should be 'put' somewhere where she can't irritate customers.

Another about 6 months or so ago about something similar where the OP complained the guy serving her didn't make eye contact, mumbled and was sucking his fingers - people pointed out that the guy could be ND or have anxiety leading to these behaviours - but nope, not good enough, he shouldn't be there because the customer doesn't like it.

I've had complaints about me in the past when suffering with anxiety - and still working - that I was dithering, that I went too slow, that I couldn't string a sentence together (I stutter when it's really bad) that I shouldn't be dealing with customers and making them uncomfortable.

So people want to have people with disabilities out there working but are also not tolerant of that affecting the service they get and that leads to complaints, which leads to employers not wanting to employ people who are ND or with mental health issues. Add to that the possibility of having more time off, needing more support & training and you've got people who are told they should be out there working but also that shouldn't be out there affecting the 'experience' that customers or clients demand.

30 hours isn’t full time, it’s only 4 days a week of both parents were working that only 3 days childcare would be needed. How do you think the rest of us manage without being in benefits? We work and find childcare, 30 hours isn’t exactly too much to ask.

Exactly. Not sure why people keep making excuses as to why it's not possible for both to work ! Even if finding childcare is trickly there are option when in a couple . When my kids were young we didn't rely on loads of benefits or childcare, my dh worked 9-5 and I worked weekends/ evening / nights. Even part time working of one around the other is manageable and there are jobs where you can do this - healthcare, hospitality, retail. A lot of the mums I knew when my kids were young would work around their partners. I would work probably 20 hours a week doing a couple of nightshifts. It wasn't easy after looking after the kids all day and then grabbing a nap and working all night on a friday night but it brought in enough. Then you'd get people on tax credits working 24 hours between a couple and being topped up. Absolute joke !

I work weekends actually around my husband who works full time .Saying there is a lack of childcare is not an excuse. It is an actual fact. I can't work more hours hence the UC top up due to no after-school clubs and no family.

Plus where do these hours come from? My workplace is cutting down hours now the new MW has come in. That will be a problem everywhere.

Where did that come from?

Oh, you are the poster show told me on another thread that I should have my benefits removed and I should "die under a bridge".

Also, I left my last job 14 years ago, but have only been on UC since 2018... first time in my life. I have tried to retrain in that time, but ended up so ill, I am still trying to claw my life back years later.

I don't know how it works for couples so can't comment on that. I'm a single parent so I only know how it works for us.

Thanks for this. My MH issues prevent me from working, and I am in the process of getting assessed for ND.... and ND stuff does not go away... and is life long.

The PP who you are quoting has really pissed me off with their assumptions.

My DP is off work at the moment (since last year), and has ASD. Yes, maybe I should tell him that he needs to work on his autism, and that he is a failure for not trying hard enough.

Think some people like to make numbers up in here.

Nah, that poster was rather nasty with me on another thread... a thread where a very vulnerable OP was worried about the proposed changes to benefits.
I did say I have not worked for 14 years, which is true. I said 10 in this thread as an example... I didn't say it was me.

It's interesting to read your constant untruths and misrepresentations of what I've posted.

I hope you don't have the same attitude when submitting your claims.

It's been estimated it would cost around £600bn per year to fun in UK to start. (That's if it was funded at £11k per year which is what has been estimated as a full need)
It's been shown to provide a slight incentive for higher paid jobs (there's a buffer for people to find the right role) but ) but disincentive for career progression (progressive tax would be high) and also for lower paid jobs - why bother earn a little more when you can do nothing and earn enough.
It comes with an eye watering personal tax bill when it's been piloted elsewhere.

If someone gave me £11k a year now for doing nothing I'd immediately give up work. It's the equivalent of giving me my state pension 9 years early (I'm 58). So immediately taking me out of the workplace and losing my tax revenue. I know other people my age who would do the same. If the pensions bill is already a huge burden on the country's finances I really can't see how UBI will work. It's the equivalent of work while you need a bit more money and then retire any time you like.

I would give up my job too. I’m mid thirties and earn £55k and have 2 DCs. If I were given £11k a year I’d give up my stressful job and do a very part time job for some top up money, but ultimately we could live very comfortably off my DHs salary and two lots of £11k basic income.

We could too. We are in a position where DP earns well but we have a large mortgage and a DC in nursery, we need that bit extra which I provide. If I was just handed 11k though not only would we not need nursery any more, that would pay our mortgage.

If UBI were imiplemented here (Spain - they've started a version of it but it's got a very long way to go and the backlog is about two years 🙄), the first thing I'd do is go back to full time work! At the moment both logistically and financially it doesn't make sense for me to do that (not on any benefits btw), but that extra income would allow me to hire carers/childcare/a cleaner and I'd be back to full time work like a rat up a drainpipe. The majority of people actually do want to work and those who don't want to tend not to anyway. Providing secure income also tends to reduce exploitation of workers massively because people are less desperate and aren't forced to endure awful working environments/unfair zero hours contracts etc. This means companies are obliged to step up and provide a decent working environment. The NHS burden is also massively reduced because for so many people the difficulty of just surviving is the main cause of stress. The removal of this burden has a dramatic effect on mental and physical health.

UBI is a complex system and yes, in theory costs more to implement but far less to administrate, but the net result is that people who have more money spend more money, covering a majority amount of its own cost through increased general prosperity. I actually wrote a massive post in much more detail about how that works yesterday but my ancient computer couldn't cope and I couldn't be arsed to write it out again!

Aren't they trialing that atm. A couple of people from our area were picked to test it out for a couple of years I read somewhere.

So what do you do if you can only find 30 hour jobs that is spread over 5 days or is shift work only where you only know your shifts 1 week in advance?

So many of the benefit problems could easily be solved if properly subsided childcare existed, rented housing was mostly only provided by the councils rather than privately and the NHS helped people earlier rather than leaving them on years long waiting lists which then renders the problem untreatable.

Well that is part of the problem @Kpo58 and its pretty hypocritical of the government to criticise individuals when it's them and their supporters who have created the system that benefits most from it.

Big businesses who hold all the power over workers, by offering the working patterns you describe.

Private landlords increasing demand and renting out houses at extortionate rates for profit and often largely paid for by benefits. If rent was lower, the benefit bill would be smaller.

If people could get fixed shift patterns that allowed two parents to each work 30 regular hours a week, they'd be able to do that without needing childcare or help to pay towards it.

The healthy young lads would be stupid not too. As soon as they turn 18 and aren't in education then child benefit stops and assuming they are in a single parent family, the council tax goes up 25%. Their parent(s) may really need the shortfall in money which is now being provided by the 18 year old in benefits.

Hopefully they are also trying to find a job, but it's extremely unlikely nowadays that you can just walk into a job straight away.

I think UBi it will deter 18 year olds working. Why work when you can live at home and be given a thousand pounds a month for doing nothing?