How to help with this situation (alcoholic getting no support currently)?

[PersonalityofaVacuum]

(If you want to know the background scroll down, I am not sure if It's relevant and It's a long story!)

I own a house (I'll call it H) with an alcoholic who I'll refer to as B (we're joint tenants).

My friend 'R', and tenant rents a room in said house.

B has recently been in hospital following an alcoholism-induced seizure and upon discharge was advised to cut down on alcohol gradually. The hospital allegedly stated that the reason for the seizure was because B had recently cut down too quickly which was too much a shock to his liver hence the body reacting as it did. B had apparently gone from drinking spirits to drinking cider in an effort to sober up gradually and the lower alcohol level caused this reaction.

My friend who lives with him cannot utilise the communal areas because B is either losing control of his bowels/bladder OR just being too drunk to be bothered(I don't know which) so is literally sh1tiing/pissing his pants and throwing said pants onto the floor and putting new ones on or not bothering, repeatedly so there is an awful smell in the house, bits of poo on the floor etc. There is an awful smell in the house obviously, just not habitable.

I visited on Saturday morning, only because me and R have a dog, who lives with me but R still wants to see and I was visiting friends I dropped said dog off for R to have for the weekend, and this is how and when I learned of this current situation.

B is also very dysfunctional generally, the house is a tip, rubbish and food everywhere, mess, muck, B sleeps downstairs on the sofa, sofa smells, B's bedroom again is strewn with dirty and soiled clothes and the smell permeates into my friend's bedroom. Friend lives in bedroom basically, has a freezer and microwave in there, only goes downstairs to the communal areas when absolutely necessary or when exiting/entering the house.

Neither of them are employed.

I was over there yesterday, helped clean the house and washed dirty clothes, threw away a lot of rubbish, got B into the bath (he hadn't washed in months). I contacted B's Mum and Sister who also came over to help and his Mum stayed there last night but she's an old lady who can't really do much.

My question is, what can I do here?

I obviously have a legal responsibility toward R, as a tenant and she's happy living there generally but also has nowhere else to go, she has a criminal record and no guarantor, and is on benefits.

I am not particularly friends with B, after a lot of turmoil in our friendship but he obviously needs help.

Hospital seemed to have just left him to it with no ongoing support.

Is there anything I should be doing? My plan is to contact his GP and SS and see if they can help but anything else?

I now live around a 90 minute drive away but as H is in my old hometown I visit quite frequently to see friends etc and when I do I'll leave my dog with R.

(Background).

B owned the house initially. Before he was this severe on the drink, he was however in danger of losing his house because he was going to lose his (quite good!) job because of it. He confided in me as his friend, and I said if he signed half the house over to me, I'd pay the mortgage and he could stay there. He did this. I moved in and became his official carer. Don't get me wrong, he was an alcoholic then but wasn't struggling as much as he is now some ten years later.

We lived together quite harmoniously for some years, I got him on a much better mortgage deal so he is paying off the house now which has now a tiny mortgage on it, and I sought him counselling and did his PIP claim, took him to appointments etc.

He does go through periods of functioning and not drinking, sometimes for almost a year, but then something sets him off again (usually an upsetting situation or mistake he makes, or sometimes he'll go on a night out and get drunk, and unlike 'normal' people, be unable to stop the next day and it just goes on and on).

During the time I lived with B, I met R, and we began a relationship. R moved into the house with me, all 3 of us lived there again, quite harmoniously but B wasn't like this then-was drinking some of the time but not soiling himself and not anywhere near as bad as he is now generally.

Eventually me and R moved elsewhere, I carried on paying half the mortgage on the house B lived in/owned.

Then me and R split up and R moved back into H and became my tenant (or lodger I suppose as I own the house with B but it isn't a BTL).

Me and R get along okay, and I don't feel it is fair she has to live with this, but also I do have a certain responsibility toward her as my tenant and I would like to go down the correct paths with B, I just don't know if any help is available!

Is there anything I can do to help with this situation?

thank you for all the responses everyone. Could I force a house sale, given he owned the house for many years before I did? R doesn't use the kitchen as It's so disgusting. It is hell-when I was his carer I remember just how awful it was and he's worse now.

I've only done this once since I moved out(last weekend being the once), I live a long way from them both, I'm not around a lot-I just visit friends in that town occasionally.

Yes, I thought he may be nearing end stage now

I know he could be damaging the fabric of the house

I am sorry about your friend @HobnobsChoice . I think he knows I am on the mortgage with him although he doesn't even know his own name at the moment, guaranteed.

@ginasevern I think it'll be R who finds him dead, if anyone. As I've said I am hardly ever there.

I've put a SS referral in and his Mum has spoken to his GP. Not sure if anything will come of it though.

When B signed over half of his property to you, did you give him any money? I understand that you took on the mortgage, but did you pay for the 50% interest in the house?

You definitely need some solid legal advice. I think the best route would be force the sale of the house, take your share and leave him to it. He really isn't your problem (without sounding unkind) but he is seriously ill and needs an intervention sooner rather than later but only he can make that call.
As for R, she is not your problem either (again without sounding unkind) she would have to register as homeless with the local council

@Allaboardthenighttrain No I didn't. We agreed that I'd just make sure he couldn't lose it. All I did was pay for improvements (new kitchen, central heating (it didn't have any-he'd bought radiators to put on himself but hadn't ever done it), a new boiler as the house didn't have any hot water even!), new flooring, landscaped the garden and a few other bits of smaller jobs, I can't remember all of it now. I paid for materials though for him to do more jobs (which he did do some of, again It's sad to think of but he's actually very skilled at carpentry and other craftsmanship's matters.

He was also on an interest only mortgage and had paid nothing off on the house since he had bought it around 13 years prior. I changed that and the mortgage as I've said is only about £20K now. So although I didn't pay a 'deposit' as such I've put him in a much more secure position.

I am going to speak to his Mum about the house. I don't feel like it is mine as much as it is his, It's been his in all ways since forever.

I actually tried to do more improvements but he wouldn't let me, once I was moved out he wouldn't let people in.

I agree with previous posters that you need to take legal advice.

It sounds as though 'B' was vulnerable when he 'agreed' to sign the house over to you, you say he was an alcoholic with MH issues at the time. If it can be proven (or even beyond reasonable doubt) that he wasn't of sound mind when he signed over half the house to you then I think you're on dodgy ground. Was a formal agreement drawn up? Was the bank involved? Was the new mortgage in joint names or solely in your name? How much is the property worth? If he was facing financial difficulty then there would have been many other routes to securing his home, signing his home over to someone who could make a claim shortly after and essentially make him homeless would have been the least sensible option.

You claim to have added value to the property, but I don't think that would stand up in court as a fair deal for half his property if he or his family decided to contest a sale that you might try and force, or in the sad event that he passes and his estate is looked into. There are a lot of unscrupulous people out there who deliberately prey on vulnerable people and the courts take a dim view.

It's a tragic situation and it sounds like taking half of a vulnerable person's house, staying for a while then leaving him to fester in it, putting another vulnerable person into the mix (who clearly has MH issues as well, not helped by the living arrangements) hasn't been the most sensible path to take. I hope that the three of you get the help you need.

Also, you've said that 'R' covers your half of the mortgage (which presumably means that 'B' pays his half?), so in reality you're not paying anything towards the mortgage.

Are you declaring the rent you receive on your tax return?

I have had that thought process@Allaboardthenighttrain , although of course I wasn't doing anything with ill-intent quite the opposite, I can see what it might look like. Another reason forcing of sale isn't a desirable thing to do.

We didn't have a formal agreement although obviously I did what I said I would do.

Both are happier living together than he was on his own and she would have been being homeless. He has that bit of and company she has low cost housing. They get along, they go out (when he's well) and buy one another things etc. I know they're both vulnerable.
Yes the bank were involved. And both names, I'd never have asked him to just give me the whole house, and he'd not have agreed even if I had-yes he was on and off with booze then, but he wasn't completely non-capacious, he was far from it.

Thank you for the extensive reply.

Yes. It comes from my bank and she pays to cover it. This started once she left me to move back there, prior to that I always paid it.

What do you mean regarding my tax return please?

Sorry, that line should have said 'he has that bit of support and company'.

v bad decision to get enmeshed with B and his property.

would write off your lost money paid on the mortgage, improvements etc, as B won’t be able to repay you, and make legal arrangements to sign the house back over to B. Then report concerns about their health and vulnerability to their GP and detach yourself.

To seek to force a sale to access your spending on the house would seem unethical.

Is it possible that he would agree to go into long term rehab living in a dry community? I know someone who did this, Yorkshire I think it was, council paid though he didn't own property which could complicate things. It was something like 6 weeks to get him gradually off the drink then he had to agree not to leave the community for 6 months, they assigned work, chores and provided housing, food etc sort of kibbutz style with a small allowance each week to enable the purchasing of basics like toiletries. I just don't remember the name but this chap is sober 10 years on, now living as a farm helped as he really couldn't return to the temptations and stresses of city living

Honestly? I'd leave them to it. B is not going to seek help, and R is satisfied with the arrangement as she pays very cheap rent and has security. You've invested very little money and half the value of the house will be yours eventually (some might think you took advantage - I can see that you didn't, but you stand to benefit) although that half will come with a lot of work and shit to sort out. Probably the house will be worth far less than it should be because it will need totally gutting down to floorboards if he's been using the floor as a toilet. It's a grim situation but you can't rescue an alcoholic and should probably stop trying for your own well-being.

I don't see op as this caring angel, I see a shrewd opportunist who seized the chance to own a home in a frankly an unfair deal to B. She also leaves her dog for a weekend at a dirty and potentially hazardous home with a man who can't even take care of his basic functions. Thats animal neglect.

The nonsense about responsibility to R is only because they are the only lodgers desperate enough to tolerate this situation and the rent is useful towards the mortgage. Op is no Saint. She knows she would struggle to find another lodger who keeps relatively quiet and puts up with this.

What should have been done is that you never got involved with either of them, but perhaps you also have or had your own addiction and other problems. A sane sober person just wouldn't get involved with either characters.

I think it's mighty cheeky and ungrateful to now turf the poor alcoholic joint owner out now your nest egg has matured and is in jeopardy of declining in value from B's failed diys and unhygienic living conditions. Morally, it's not ok to do this to him when he is so vulnerable and you benefitted from years passing and house gaining more financial value.you had agreed you will look after him and he will live there but you've left him to it. It was never a realistic or sane agreement.I also wonder if he was in his full mental capacity when he signed. I don't know if this affects your ownership to the house, i don't know what Equity law has to say about this or whether poor B will have the confidence to fight it as addictions cause a lot of shame and guilt.

. Assuming you are legally entitled to the house, you could apply to court to force the sale of the house and then the money will be split but you would need to show you have tried to reach an agreement together before involving court i believe trying to sell for a year. This is in England and you should seek legal advice to your country.

In england when a joint tenant passes away their half automatically goes to the other joint tenant regardless of any will. Again, seek legal advice.

As pp said another alternatives is just to leave things as they are, or to sign the home back to him.

B welfare: contact council adult social care and report your concerns.

R: The council will put her in a hostel which might be more hygienic than current home. Seek advice on evicting lodgers. The housing charity Shelter is a good port of call for this.

Good luck to you all.

@Loopytiles I can see that now in a sense although I don't think so much for B and R. I still sort out any repairs, pay the insurance and deal with other house matters (including any new mortgages etc) and I still get help for B when he needs it and I can-It's just, I've never known him quite this affected before.

When I did this originally me and B were very close. I gave up work to be his carer (well almost, I got a job working just weekend nights so that I had a little bit of income). He was made redundant (was public sector) involving a process which took almost a year to sort out, they 'forgot' to pay his redundancy payment and were being very difficult. I still shudder thinking of that period in life!

I agree it would be unethical, I've never even considered it, and as I asked a PP I am not even sure I actually could even if I wanted to, which I don't.

I mainly posted for advice on how to help him and her, there's often something one could've missed.

@mitogoshi not IMpossible, although I've never heard of things like that. Not too far from Yorkshire. I will look into it. B is actually very sociable and I think living on his own for so long had contributed to his alcoholism but that's just my not-quite-armchair psychology (I am qualified in a similar field). I think if someone was to sort of pick B up and throw him into such a situation he might thrive, It's the process of it that he'd find daunting and perhaps undesirable.

@PineappleTime thank you, I definitely never considered that I might be taking advantage at the time, he was desperate to not lose his home and I worried as to where he would end up.

Luckily in a sense, although I don't think the house will be worth anywhere near what other houses on the street are, the ground it stands on is worth far more than the mortgage currently stands at, so although it'll definitely need money spending on it it won't be quite as bad a financial situation as it could have been.

For a long time I really suffered with the situation but I have become desensitised to a point now, I had to, or I'd have gone mad!

@ThatGutsyOrca dog is very happy there as still very attached to R, who takes dog out for long periods while she has her and the rest of the time they're both in R's bedroom. I am not worried about that. I realise I said It's frequent that I visit that town but for context it was about 4 months ago last time the dog stayed there up until last weekend, it isn't every other weekend or such-although due to personal circumstances I am going to try to visit friends more frequently from now on.

I do care a lot for R. She ended our relationship as she felt she couldn't give me what I need in one, given her turbulent background and MH, and didn't want a 'normal' life living in a nice place with me, felt much happier back at H.

I don't have time to go into it all but both of them have had their issues to a point where I have been endangered (one of them I won't say which caused me a lifelong injury for example) so whereas I am no saint (who is?!), I don't think I have done them both too badly considering.

I don't know, if I hadn't have ever got involved I don't know what had have happened to either/both of them-it could have been better, but it could have been a hell of a lot worse for them too (and I don't think B would be still alive if I am honest, the number of times me and/or R have found him following a seizure or fall and sought medical care). When I lived there I made him a fulltime job.

No, I've never had addiction or 'other problems (?)' myself. I like a few glasses of wine but that's it.

With respect, I have never thought, considered or said (in this thread or otherwise) that I would 'turf him out' of his home.

I do not know what 'nest egg has matured' means. The house hasn't gained value as I said above, it hasn't lost as much as it might've done due to being in a decent area (near a train station, city centre and motorway and a park and good schools etc etc) but I very much doubt it has gained value.

I was his carer for many years, but he refused (aside from very short periods) to engage properly with any of the services I had sought for him or appointments I took him to although he said he would do and on the surface appeared to be doing, and eventually he sobered up of his own accord, as I've said in the OP (or other posts, apologies I forget) he doesn't drink all of the time. He'll go through long periods of sobriety and at one point I thought me and R moving out would be of help to him, plus I was utterly exhausted. I didn't leave him to pay the mortgage alone, I still paid my half even while not living there. He was alone for maybe 3-4 months before R moved back in. She isn't a carer for him per se but she does look after him in the sense of doing his shopping, noticing when he's unwell and getting in touch with me or his Mum etc, she keeps an eye on him.

I don't want to force sale of the house at all, as I've said before this thread it had never crossed my mind that that was a thing that was legally possible and it certainly isn't morally feasible either. Some posters have suggested it and I asked if I even could do that, but I wouldn't regardless-I couldn't live with myself. It has been his home for a long time and despite it being a shit tip, It's a roof over his head and security and It's his, in my mind if not fully legally.

I am thinking of signing it all back to him. I'd also considered that, in the event that he dies, his Mother might want the house although if I am honest, I don't think she will.

I did contact SS as I (think I?) mentioned previously and his GP has been contacted by his Mother who was staying there and more able to explain the current situation.

R wouldn't want to live in a hostel-I think if she couldn't live at H with B any longer she'd look for another lodgings arrangement.

For clarity to all PP , when I first met B I had no idea of his alcoholism. He was still working, in a decent position too.

When I met R, again I had no idea she had problems. She presented very well as people with MH/addiction issues often can do and combined with the fact that I had no idea what signs to look for and hadn't been in that world before, I just didn't know. I was drip fed her issues. I met her through work. No immediate red flags and there remained a lot of good things about our relationship up until we moved out, she was just very unhappy and wanted to go back to H.

👆🏻 This 👆🏻

Sorry but this is a bonkers situation. Every single part of it screams poor decision-making, poor judgement, odd choices, and mind-blowing levels of dysfunction on all counts (and I say this having worked in drug / alcohol / mental health / homelessness sectors for decades.

And you mention in your last post that one of them caused you life-changing injuries?!?! And yet you’re still caring for them and allowing them to live there?! It’s all extremely unhealthy on all fronts (morally, physically, psychologically, emotionally, legally).

I literally can’t believe you think any part of this was in any way a good idea.

You say you met her through work yet previously you say she'd had serious mental health issues in the past and had four children removed from her care? And you knew nothing about this when you started the relationship? Anyone (R in this case) who 'chooses' to go back to a living arrangement with another person who has serious mental health and addiction problems, chooses to stay there despite being in danger (they both sound like they have had issues with violence in the past), despite there being excrement all over the house, despite having to live in a small bedroom because the living conditions are so poor, is in a pretty desperate and serious way.

At best you're enabling this chaotic and dangerous lifestyle for the two of them, at worst you're controlling them for your own gain without a thought for their well-being. You've got half a house from one and the other is paying your mortgage.

With regards to tax return / legal position / second property considerations (if you own another one) etc etc, you need to look into. You sound like you're in a good financial position if you were a) given a mortgage and b) able to pay for the works you claim to have done.

Sign the house back to him, inform social services and leave them alone. If the situation is as desperate as you say there is help out there for them, it sounds as if you've only made things worse I'm afraid.

I'm slightly confused by one aspect. You got given half of his house, for paying the mortgage for a few years, which he now pays again? Your ex partner who has an extensive criminal history lives there, and the place is a state. Unless you plan of trying to get him to leave- which I doubt you could, u less you try to sell it and go through the legal route, I'd say you need to leave everyone to it.

@StringTheory1 I've already responded to the 'this'. And yes, they did. I don't do as much now as I've mentioned, I live in a different county-It's mainly the admin side of things although I did help with the clean up over last weekend to assist his Mum and Sister.

Obviously as above, it was a long time ago when I went on the mortgage and moved in with B. I didn't know 'R' then and I thought with the help from me, B would improve and I could help sort the house out, which I did for some years. It's still improved in the sense that It's now got a kitchen, heating and hot water and new floors etc but he's making a mess of it now as I mentioned in the OP.

I didn't realise it would continue, or I'd have thought twice about doing it in the first place. Again as I've said, B is a very intelligent man who presented as just someone needing a bit of help-and we were close at the time.

@Allaboardthenighttrain yes I met her through work, when I was doing my weekend night job. I had no idea of any of her past at the time.

There wasn't excrement all over the house when R left me and our new home and went back. This is a new thing and the reason I started the thread-I knew things had become worse. It was a bit of a mess, and he was a drinker but it wasn't anywhere near as bad as it is now, she didn't willingly walk into an excrement-filled house, nor did she know she'd wind up having to live in just her bedroom. I think she's very used to a chaotic lifestyle, hence why it felt safer for her to be there than in a 'normal' situation with me, but again I didn't see this back then.

I don't think anything would change for either of them if I wasn't named on the house?

She pays about 10% of what most rental places would charge her-I am not sure what sort of deal she'd get in a lodgings arrangement which may be what she'd look for if she had to leave, but again aside from this latest episode, she's happy there.

Right I understand about the tax return-of course I declare it, I am a BTL landlord and It's all in together although obviously I do not make any rental income from R. I was more asking if there was some relevancy to my question i.e. if I could help further.

I am considering signing the house back to him, I guess R would then feel she couldn't' approach me for any help with him, she'd have to sort it herself.

Sorry I thought I'd mentioned before that I have informed SS.

I am not sure how I have made things worse for either of them? Genuinely. He might've been dead or homeless or if someone did step in and he was able to keep his home it would still be more awful (I did say I had got him a new kitchen which I did but I neglected to mention that the previous one didn't function at all!) and I don't know what would have happened to her.

TBH your OP is very convoluted and complicated that I didn't fully understand the situation. You CAN still get him our by forcing the sale - not easy, but might be worth it to wash your hands of the situation.

You're a BTL landlord, who works nights and starts relationships with incredibly complex people who you claim do not show any 'red flags' (despite having a criminal record, MH issues and had their children removed), who takes half of vulnerable people's homes, allows (places) another vulnerable person to move in and remain in a totally inappropriate situation, claims to not understand my initial reference to declaring rental income through at tax return and can't see how your behaviour has impacted two incredibly unwell people?? And by your own admission 'B' wasn't nearly so bad until seemingly you got involved. Wow.

This has to be a wind up.

Perfectly and succinctly put.

If two or more people own a property then in general if one wants to sell and the other(s) do not a sale can be forced.

www.wellerslawgroup.com/practice-areas/for-personal/litigation-dispute-resolution/property-disputes-and-litigation-for-individuals/tolata-orders-for-sale/

Obviously this is subject to it depends on the ownership, trusts, companies etc.

However I wouldn't be morally ok with doing this in this situation.

Personally I'd sign the house over to B again and leave them to it.

Services will not engage with an active alchoholic because it's a total waste of money that could be benefitting someone who can use the help.

Seizures look bad, and I also have non epileptic seizures, but you can't make him engage.

I'm sorry.