Did boomers get it right?

[GreyGoosehound]

I’ve lurked on several recent posts about deteriorating behaviour in schools, with increasing violence and 4 and 5 year olds who don’t have basic skills.

I’ve also seen threads and SM posts about boomers, mainly negative. But it’s also acknowledged that GenX are quite a hardy, resilient bunch.

I am generation X, and have brought up my genZ children differently to how I was raised. I was more present in their lives, made huge efforts to meet their needs in a way that my parents didn’t, as did many other parents in my age group.

You don’t need to look hard to find criticism of Millenials and GenZ, and GenAlpha (2012+) are commonly discussed as nightmare fodder.

Did the benign neglect and distanced parenting of boomers work better for growing children? Did the freedom that GenX had make a huge difference in their development?

I know there are global issues that contribute - the internet must have made a huge difference to both parenting and in child development, financially GenX had an easier time of becoming independent from parents, all this will have an effect.

I wonder if this is just a blip in human development, or how genZ and future generations will parent their children in response to how they were parented.
Thought this would make an interesting discussion.

@GreyGoosehound Older generations have always slagged off the younger generations.
Don't know whether its jealousy or the bitterness at the passing of youth but criticism of the young is as old as time itself.

Written almost a 1000 years ago... "The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint ... As for the girls, they are forward, immodest and unladylike in speech, behaviour and dress."

Might be better to look at your own faults instead of picking on what you think are other peoples?

Um, that’s kinda the point of the thread!

It’s not meant as a criticism of any generation, but having a good discussion about how our parent’s generation differed to ours in terms of parenting, and the different choices we’re now making for our children and the effects these are having.

There are tricky areas to consider, such as the reported rise in poor behaviour in schools, but on the whole this thread has thrown up some really interesting points.

@GreyGoosehound ..but is there more poor behavior? is it linked to parenting or poverty (ie diet) hardship or lack of health support?

The Comp school i went to in the 70s was a cesspit of bad behavior and violence.

Just look at the products of "boomer" parenting in the film Scum for examples of shocking behavior.

I just think that older people will always have a tendency to criticise the younger generations, esp over behavior, when i was kid we were all suppose to be into football violence, glue sniffing, laziness/unemployment, punk rock... "You youngsters need a good dose of National Service" bollocks.

My mum always warned me "Never forget that you were once young"

@GreyGoosehound bad behaviour in schools is a very complex issue. There's no one reason, like parenting. Are there parents that cause issues ? Of course. There always were though. Just like there was awful behaviour in schools before , just in different ways , and tbh half of it didn't exist it's mostly "no one bothered to pull us up on it". Fighting, sexual assault, swearing, smoking etc. were rife ,just not the teachers' problem

Underfunding, lack of staff, waiting lists for SEND that are years long, lack of support for kids and parents , ridiculous expectations of kids regardless of ability, cuts in services (all services) and expect schools and staff to be everything for everyone, increased numbers of pupils with significant and often comorbid SENDs , lack of enough special schools, increase in SEND presence due to lack of special schools, genetics, lack of stigma, not having them kept at home or institutionalised etc. all contribute to it. Parenting is just a small part. Someone was deploring yesterday on a thread the loss of corporal discipline in schools. Sure , kids are not afraid and are not beaten into submission anymore, but despite the struggles I'm certain that's not a bad thing.

but is there more poor behavior? is it linked to parenting or poverty (ie diet) hardship or lack of health support?

This is why I asked. It’s something I think about a lot. If I believed the threads I’ve been reading (mainly about schools with accounts from teachers) then it’s mainly down to crappy parents, but in general (there being shitty parents around whatever year they were born in) I don’t believe that’s responsible for the general shift.
Some posters have mentioned that more women are having to work longer hours - both parents in FT work may well have an effect. Internet and SM have been mentioned - also very interesting theories. There’s been a change in how children are treated, and a bigger focus on their mental health (which doesn’t seem to be having the positive impact that many of us thought it would), and generational changes in parenting methods.
Of course older generations have problems with youngsters and their new fangled ways, that’s just the way of the world, but I hoped this thread was different to being a moanfest about youngsters.

Thinking about it, I have strong feelings that the perceived rise in violence in schools, the rise in children identified as having SEN (some year groups reporting as many as 2/3 with SEN) is a sign of hugely stressed and struggling children. If teachers are finding teaching so difficult due to the pressure they are put under then it stands to reason that children are suffering too.

I took my GCSEs in the early 90s, and A levels after that. I was a stresshead anyway but don’t remember having any pressure put on me as a teenager, no more than any other year at secondary, and certainly not as much as my children had throughout their school lives from year 5 as they were prepared for yr 6 SATs and right up to GCSEs and beyond. The pressure on them at every step was enormous and, particularly with dd and many of her friends, put a huge shadow over them throughout secondary school.

Whilst current behaviour (violence, lack of basic skills) is usually seen as bad, with blame flung around in parents directions, I think time will tell, and perhaps it’ll reach a point where more children are removed from school, and more will reach a point where action has to be taken to stop putting children under so much stress that can no longer cope. For SN children the education system has been routinely failing children for years. Education, even if it’s better funded, isn’t necessarily fit for purpose if it means a significant cohort still cannot cope. It needs to suit children better, engage them with learning, not switching them off, which increasingly seems to be happening. And maybe parenting in a way where we are more in touch with our children’s needs has enabled them to show more clearly that they’re not coping, rather than having to bottle it up.

I realise this is a different take than I had yesterday, but this is a good thing about threads like this, the more people post differing views the more food for thought.

@PaperDoIIs i cross posted with you there!

Corporal punishment has no place in schools.
If there is a rise in violence I suspect it could be because more children are disengaged from education, if there are any communication difficulties that have not been addressed that can transfer to violence as the young person may not have any other options available to them at that time. Not condoning that in any way though, just with my knowledge of autism means I have an understanding of how this can happen, and it’s not necessarily fixed by increasing discipline.
Maybe this will mean that at some point there’s no choice but to change the system so it’s better for pupils and teachers. At the moment it sounds crap for everyone involved.

I work in schools and I agree. Tbh i'm big,bad and ugly enough to handle it most days , the hardest thing is the emotional load of seeing so many kids in distress, struggling, falling between the cracks. That's why the lack of resilience argument bothers me so, so much. If some of these posters experienced even a fraction of what some of the kids I work with do, they wouldn't even get out of bed. Much less be able to actually be there, learn, even form relationships and bonds , have fun.

The ironic thing is, when we talk about adults , there's always an excuse... having a bad day, emotional/mental breakdown, overwhelmed, tired etc. It's ok to meltdown, to breakdown, to have a bad day, take a day off sick, or weeks or months, or quit your job etc. Kids don't have that option. They can't change departments or jobs, get away from their bullies, get adapted duties etc.

As much as we pretend to be better, deep down, as a society we still seem to cling to the old mentality of "what do kids have to be depressed about?". They have no worries, no challenges, just wait until they're adults to see what real struggle is.

Personally, my kid is ok, but it bothers and angers me on behalf of the kids I work with, who despite being difficult, tricky, even violent are so strong, they work so hard and they do have a chance if they were awarded the resources , time and support needed.

I agree @GreyGoosehound with much of your post above. I think it’s so easy to place the blame for the supposed ‘issues’ with youngsters at the door of said youngsters and their parents but like you point out the systems and structures that we place these children in are failing and unfit for purpose. School in particular.

You only have to read the many posts on here week in week out of anxious and stressed out pupils and teachers and the parents too of course. The pressure on all involved is huge. The overly academic focus and constant testing is too much. At best school kids are disengaged and at worst they are burnt out or sometimes worse 😞
Couple this with economic uncertainty (things like home ownership feel out of reach for today’s youngsters) and growing inequality, cost of living crisis and environmental problems, a pandemic, Brexshit, stagnant wages etc etc it’s no wonder our youngsters are burnt out.

https://fortune.com/2023/06/27/gen-zers-turning-to-radical-rest-delusional-thinking-self-indulgence-late-stage-capitalism-molly-barth/amp/

But some of those things were real issues. Glue sniffing was an issue and children died. Football was attracting a criminal violent element. Youth unemployment was high so some young adults were lying in bed despondent. Punk rock did exist and was brilliant. Every generation has its own issues.

Trigger warning: not very nice content.

Yes, the glue sniffing. Now there was a huge mental health issue in the 80's. It was awful if you ever happened upon it. Great big bags of glue, attached to people's faces. My Nanna was scared to go to the shops on her own for fear of coming across glue sniffers, gangs of skinheads,

I went to Edinburgh for a festival a few years ago, and there was a woman of about 40 sitting outside a pub. She was piercing her gums with a cocktail stick and squirting gas into them to get high. She kept getting moved on by bar staff. Obviously a long term mental health issue, and it reminded me of the glue sniffers from my youth.

Some kids in my class in the mid 80s were massively disruptive. There were lots of physical fights that broke out during break time, or organised after school. Heck, we had a 'remedial' class in each year at High School full of kids who could barely write or spell in their teens. Lots who had learning difficulties just stuck in a class of supposed 'no hopers' Suspension and exclusion were commonplace. Looking back, there was obviously so much undiagnosed Dyslexia, ADHD and Autism.

That’s awful!

I remember reading an article suggesting that the vast majority of 16-24 yr old men in prison have undiagnosed SN, which would make so much sense.

I don’t suppose many current teachers taught in the 80s.

I think when it comes down to it, and again this is on a personal level, I wish I was a kid now rather than when I was.

All the freedom and the adventures I had do not make up for the neglect, abuse , lack of understanding and sheer indigestion and lack of caring from the adults around me that had a fucking duty of care, including teachers.

"The ironic thing is, when we talk about adults , there's always an excuse... having a bad day, emotional/mental breakdown, overwhelmed, tired etc. It's ok to meltdown, to breakdown, to have a bad day, take a day off sick, or weeks or months, or quit your job etc. Kids don't have that option. They can't change departments or jobs, get away from their bullies, get adapted duties etc."

It really is not okay to meltdown at work. And my kids could always take sick days off more easily than me. I have to pay the bills. It can be easier to change job than school though.

The thing is, you have the power to change job if you need to. Kids don't have that power. The number of times I begged my mother to let me change schools, only to have that fall on deaf ears and have to continue in an unacceptable and damaging situation. The power is all with the adults there.

@RainbowZebraWarrior The kids glue sniffing when I was a child had neglectful or abusive parents. Safeguarding seemed to be less robust.

@ForestBather Yes children are at the mercy of their parents decisions. Some parents fight for their children and move schools or home educate. Others sadly do not.

Really interesting discussion, although I wish it hadn’t started to discuss the problems of SN kids, as by définition they are not the majority ( unless of course by now they are).

As an example of the lack of will towards resilience by parents, there is a thread today in which a mother wonders whether it is safe for her Eighteen year old daughter, studying at university away from home, to stay in a Premier Inn (booked and paid for by her employer) after she finishes her shift.

Thankfully most of the replies told her it would be okay.

I like the bit about chess. Clearly the Fortnite of the 1850s!

You talk utter tripe. If you don't cosign om your kid's sick day, your kid has to go in. Sick pay covers you when you can't go in. And you don't have to ask your parents to find you another job, or even get their permission. You have agency and that gives you huge choices that your kids lack. I speak from experience.

Child-Vito didn't have a choice about going into the primary school that I was sexually assaulted in. Child-Vito didn't have a choice about going to school every day full stop. Child-Vito attempted suicide, ended up in A&E until 3am, and was still sent to school in the morning. Child-Vito couldn't change school, or even change set, to avoid a bully.

Adult-Vito got suicidal after being bullied at work by my manager, went on sick leave for eight weeks, and used that time to job hunt and get another job elsewhere. Adult-Vito went back to work my notice and write the War and Peace of handover docs. Adult-Vito was able to negotiate to have a different manager for that period of handover. Adult-Vito could make those choices and I know my rights now so I know what I can ask for. Adult-Vito was able to pursue a SEND diagnosis (autism) without needing my parents to lobby on my behalf.

Adults have agency that children don't. People claim disingenuously that children have nothing to be stressed about because they have no responsibilities: that's not true because the child is responsible for trying to get the best academic results possible whilst navigating the hellscape that is modern schooling, with no agency to improve their situation if they are bullied or have undiagnosed SEND. In all of my adult life, including having to reapply for my own job during a restructure, I have never been as stressed or as anxious for literal years on end as I was at school.

Like i said, each generation blames the next one! we all have issues!!! but vast majority grow up and get jobs become reasonably responsible adults.

However, compared to previous post war generations, todays youngsters have little hope of meaningful employment, FE HE education, housing, holidays, a car or motorcycle... healthcare.

My own DD left Uni with owing 50k, pays back over £65 per month in loan fees, £12 a day parking fees (NHS) & will never pay the loan back as the interest rate is so fucking high, despite earning £35k pa, she will never be able to buy her own home without parental help.

Perhaps if there is an increase in bad behaviour its down to a lack of hope and therefore ambition?

I’m sorry for everything you went through. Especially as a child.

It’s interesting what you’re saying about children’s rights. If you really think about it children do not enjoy the same rights as adults. Even those children who are not maltreated, who have good, supportive parents are forced into institutions not of their choosing until they’re 16 or 18 and until recently many parents would not have stood up for their child’s rights in many situations. Too often the rules and expectations of the systems and structures would trump what is best for the child. One could argue this still happens today, though it’s clear more and more parents are advocating for their child’s rights.

I think this phenomenon is why there is an increase in ‘bad behaviour’ in schools. Yes of course there has always been genuine bad behaviour, always will be, but I believe the increase in things like poor attendance, lack of following the rules, kids messing about that wouldn’t have in the past, lack of engagement etc is in part due to children knowing their rights more than in the past and pushing back against an unfair, highly pressurised, ultra strict, dry, outdated curriculum/system. Not to mention the stress and anxiety caused.

You are placing a lot of emphasis on your own experience, as if it's definitive of everyone in your age group.

And many adults don't actually have much option when it comes to things like changing jobs, or moving.

I would argue that overall, kids now have much less autonomy than they did a generation ago, which is part of their problem. Of course kids have never had total autonomy, that's neglectful parenting.

Adults do have more agency than children. But I could not go off sick for 8 weeks. Your scenario relies on being fairly privileged with sick leave entitlement and being able to pay the bills.

There are definitely some differences between times - my mother taught classes of 40 six year olds after WWII (the real baby boom) in a poor part of Newcastle. There was no teaching assistant - only my mother was there and although there were always some trouble makers, children with a father in prison etc there was more respect for authority and parents supported a school's decisions and children sat still at their desk more.

Pretty easy to keep discipline through fear, the cane, slipper, cuff round the ear, ruler across the knuckles, the 'belt used at home.

These sorts of punishments were normal means of keeping children under control post WW2.

Judging by the the scratched in drawings and rude words (usually about teachers) found in old school desks, those kids may have been seating at their desks but they weren't being inactive!

Really interesting discussion, although I wish it hadn’t started to discuss the problems of SN kids, as by définition they are not the majority ( unless of course by now they are).

Teachers often talk of an increase in SN. In one thread I read that some classes have 2/3 SN children.

My own dc have SN (but are adults now), but I believe had they been to school when I went to school (35/40 years ago) they would have coped and at no point would anyone have needed to wonder if they were autistic or had ADHD. They may have school refused back then but I doubt it would have been chased up. They may not have put any effort in, which again would likely to have been ignored. They would have been able to choose the more practical options that would have held their interests better. They would have been able to more easily get an apprenticeship.

I believe that more children are having to be diagnosed because the education system is so flawed that children can’t cope any longer.

Children that can’t cope look badly behaved. Are they less resilient or have things become so bad that the increase in challenging behaviour is necessary to force the changes that need to happen? Has their upbringing caused them to be ruder and more outspoken? Or has it given them the confidence and security to let it be known however they can that they’re not coping?