England is running out of teachers

[noblegiraffe]

Or, to be clear, people who are willing to teach in schools. It has plenty of ex teachers who have vowed never to set foot in a school again.

While everyone seems to understand that you can't expect to see a doctor or dentist anymore, the message about not being able to expect your child to have a teacher anymore doesn't seem to have filtered through in the same way.

The number of cover lessons that kids are having is going through the roof. Some people think that if a kid has an adult in front of them then they are learning something, where kids know if they have a 'supply' timetabled that afternoon they are in for a doss lesson. Some people think that if a kid has a teacher for their subject that the teacher actually knows the subject being taught, which is increasingly not the case. Some people think that if lessons are being planned for those teachers and the teacher just has to 'deliver' them then that will be good enough, which is often not the case.

Exam classes at least used to be protected and given the 'good teachers', which is increasingly no longer the case, with Y11s reporting that they have a variety of supply teachers, even in core subjects.

There was a thread recently where an A-level student hadn't had a teacher for a year, wondering why the school hadn't done anything about it. We cannot magic up teachers! A-level students at my school are increasingly in the position of not having a teacher and having to teach themselves, and schools are now encouraged to put 'no teacher' on UCAS applications as relevant information for universities.

Recent threads about suggesting teachers need to be paid more to boost recruitment, or given a day off a fortnight to boost recruitment have attracted replies about teachers thinking they are special, or lazy, paid well enough already and having enough time off already.

But the education system is in crisis and something needs to drastically change as it's only getting worse.

The DfE's solution is to hire from abroad, at a time when the rest of government is seeking to reduce immigration.
https://www.tes.com/magazine/news/general/dfe-mulls-boost-international-recruitment

Quite. A large proportion of my evenings/weekends/holidays were taken up with marking and lesson prep. I didn't leave at 3.30 because I had to ensure that children got onto their buses and then had to oversee detentions and after that I had to phone parents whose children would be in detention the next day.

Believe it or not, I then had to phone parents whose children hadn't misbehaved that day to tell them that their children hadn't been as awful as usual, eg, little Johnny isn't tried to set fire to the curtains today - how wonderful he is.

It is an absolute fallacy that teachers work 40 weeks per year. I worked (as do many others) from 08:00 to 18:30 and then went home to do more work, often not getting to bed until 1 or 2 in the morning. People who blithely twitter on about 'Oh, but you leave at 3.30' need a bloody hard slap.

The problem for me is not the starting salary, its the salary you get after years of experience, extra responsibility and increasing demand. As someone has said in a previous reply, many of my friends and family wages have surpassed mine. I have two postgraduate degrees (SEND and PGCE), years of experience and line manage around 10 staff. My Husband does not manage anyone and his job requires BA only. He earns alot more than me and he has many perks and benefits to his role. Also, it is great if you are 22 live at home and just starting out with no children of your own or career change and children have all grown up. But if you have young children, it is very inflexible. You can't pick up or drop off children to and from school, can't rake any time off for their school activities etc or even for their medical appointments and the cost of a holiday during school holidays is not worth it. I love my job it is truly a vocation but sadly I will change career (even take a pay cut) to something less stressful, more flexible and where I feel the pay matches the level of responsibility and demands.

You’re right it’s not flexible at all. That was trotted out as a perk for a long time. It’s simply not true. My child was the first in the door and the last to leave the nursery when she was a toddler. The only saving grace was I worked part time in order to actually see her….

On the topic of inclusion- when inclusion was fought for by parents it was so their physically disabled children could learn with other children of a similar intelletual ability. Before this, if you were using a wheelchair, you might not get to take exams. It was a crazy and unfair system that needed to change. At the same time SEN schools improved dramatically and now often have fantastic experienced teachers.

What then happened is that increasingly children with learning difficulties or autism were ‘included’ in mainstream schools with year on year diminishing support. The vast, vast majority of parents, children and school staff see this as inappropriate and damaging, first and foremost to the children themselves and secondly to their peers. Then of course, the challenge for teachers, many of whom don’t have the very specialist skills in teaching communication or life skills to a child who isn’t speaking yet. Those who care feel desperately guilty about it but have almost no power to improve things.

There is now a lottery with some SEN children winning the few places in largely excellent SEN schools and the rest languishing in mainstream.

We really should stop using the word ‘inclusion’ and start calling it SEN on the cheap. It serves no one well.

I live in Suffolk where schools aren't bad but home Ed is a huge " thing," plus lots of forest schools. I used to be quite cynical of both but to be honest what I've seen more of is rounded children who are socially mature and well behaved.
My late mum used to teach and retired early through I'll health several years ago when teaching was driving her potty - I can only imagine what it's like today.

I agree with everything you've said.

Just to add that even if the teachers have the skills needed for meeting specialist SEN needs, they can't deliver it at the same time as teaching a mainstream class.

SilkFloss · Yesterday 10:20
Re: fractions. The curriculum states that Yr 3 and 4 children should be taught to find non-unit fractions of amounts.
(Rising Stars) test question (Yr 4): Find 7/8 of 960.
I wonder what proportion of adults would be able to answer that, let alone in timed test conditions. But 8 year-olds are expected to

If you've learned your tables its not hard at all. The main thing you need to know is:

12 x 8 = 96 (x10 = 960).

7 x 12 is 84 (x10 = 840)

Making the numbers bigger by multiplying by 10 really doesn't add complexity. Questions like this are why there's a need to get times tables mastered by year 4. It makes a question like this simple.

That is a very "let the eat cake" attitude!
So glad that worked for your DC but it is not only the "dragged up" who may not thrive through online schooling.
There are children with MLD, SEN and others who may not yet fully appreciate the link between education and life chances.
BUT.... the children you are insulting would particularly struggle; those who may have caring responsibilities, no food, be living with DA, addiction or a whole range of unimaginable situations to endure in the home. Those children need positive interaction, role models and routine or you place even greater burden on the failing social care system and society as a whole.
I am not saying parenting isn't always an issue, it most certainly is in an increasingly number of cases, but that is not the child's fault, should they not be afforded the same life chances as other DC?
How could they ever progress if living in chaotic conditions?
Let them 'sink' while children like your DC rise is the message your sending, this would create greater issues socially, which may even impact your DC.

This. You just can't get through to some people, can you?

It would increase the number of teachers and address the shortage <sigh>

In other words, the poster's solution is to put a warm body at the front of the class and everything will be fine. 😂 Meanwhile, those of us who live in the real world know that these stop-gap teachers won't cope and won't last. That's a really good, well-thought out solution (not).

Dignity? Oh the irony, when you've had a post deleted for posting a personal attack! 😂😂

but it was written to annoy her

Shame, because it failed miserably (as did your other "claims"). Keep trying, though.

Schools are hugely underfunded, behaviour is out of control, there is a huge sense of entitlement amongst parents (which children absorb), teachers are underpaid yet hugely experienced in many cases. I do believe in state education passionately but it isn’t working.

Of course, not all independent schools can say that pupils’ behaviour is good. However, in my school, the children are given a lot more freedom to run about. They do two timetabled hours of sport per day and charge about the grounds in between lessons. Thy can also sign up for active clubs out of lessons and many choose to play sport in their free time. Screens are not allowed, apart from when they are used in lessons.

Parents are demanding but usually take a firm but fair approach to life. Their children are taught to respect teachers and adults in charge in general. They are taught to look you in the eye (within reason for those who are ND) and shake your hand. They ask how you are and they wait to hear your response. Their approach to life is somehow a bit messier but that formality/respect is ever-present.

Examples of “poor” behaviour might include forgetting games kit, being sarcastic to a friend, taking too long in the changing room. Children are much “younger” in their outlook than their state school peers in general.

Me too but that’s partly why I’m returning full time after mat leave. I don’t actually know any other teachers who have returned full time after 1 let alone 2 mat leaves. Some have turned full time once their kids are at school to take promotions etc. but most don’t.

Yes this is my experience as a parent of children doing online learning. I totally understand it would not suit all children, but my kids have thrived under the small classes, great teaching, lack of disruption and it allows them to enjoy certain freedoms and independence in their days. They really take responsibility for their learning and I'm not joking when I say they miss school in the holidays! They are just 7 and 10!

Which part of a starting salary, rising to over £41k in six years (excluding supplements), isn't competitive?
https://www.nasuwt.org.uk/advice/pay-pensions/pay-scales/pay-scales-england.html

If they started paying teachers £50,000 and TAs £20,000, we would not have so many of them leave.

Competitive will vary by industry. £41k for someone with 6 years of experience may be high or competitive in some fields, it’s a starting salary in my company.

Valid point, but is your job in the private sector, and are there half a million jobs in your industry available? Perhaps the restricted numbers and specialty, along with market competitiveness drive up wages?

Also, it might rise to £41K in six years but it pretty much stagnates at that point for the next 30.

My starting salary was higher than £41k, plus it didn’t stagnate at £41k for years and years unless I took on additional poorly paid responsibilities. When you look at the cost of becoming a teacher for the average university student, it just isn’t worth it, especially those specialising in maths or the sciences. Someone with a physics degree would be wasting their earning potential becoming a teacher.

The part where the competition are taking all the graduates and we don’t have enough people becoming teachers.

My husband is a non-graduate, he doesn't even have A Levels. He works at an equivalent level of seniority in the police force. He gets paid more, gets better mat/pat leave and other benefits. He also (until he reached Inspector) got paid for any over time he does!

Schools in London are seeing lower pupil
numbers and once oversubscribed primary schools don’t need all the teachers they had, my friends daughter with a teaching degree and maths specialism for primary couldn’t get a teaching job was a high level TA instead. Many many family and friends in teaching, all have issues at times, and work longer than a school day of course, I can’t believe anyone thinks otherwise. Half of them went into teaching after time in other careers and appreciate all the upside, pension, holidays, incremental rises and reasonable job security. Two were paid to train on special schemes. Those who trained 40 plus years ago stayed in teaching and retired early with the old previous pension scheme. They all say the constant playing with the curriculum has been frustrating and often pointless and time consuming. None moaned about the students, although some had issues with parents. Recently there have been more mutterings about huge numbers of students reporting with anxiety at young ages and TAs time being taken up solely with this. Most teachers I know think children start full time school too young and they are seeing more coming to school completely unready for a variety of reasons. Teachers are being asked to be social workers, psychologists and teachers. They need to be able to concentrate on the teaching - parents, doctors etc must take on responsibilities outside of this.

But the starting salary is good, it’s very competitive, on par with a lot of private sector graduate jobs but with better pension, sick leave, holidays. It really isn’t the problem. Pay for experienced teachers is a problem and needs to be addressed, and workload during term time needs to be lowered. They are the main problems and recruitment would be better if those were sorted.

As I have pointed out the starting salary is lower than social work and probation officers.