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England is running out of teachers

1000 replies

noblegiraffe · 24/03/2024 12:48

Or, to be clear, people who are willing to teach in schools. It has plenty of ex teachers who have vowed never to set foot in a school again.

While everyone seems to understand that you can't expect to see a doctor or dentist anymore, the message about not being able to expect your child to have a teacher anymore doesn't seem to have filtered through in the same way.

The number of cover lessons that kids are having is going through the roof. Some people think that if a kid has an adult in front of them then they are learning something, where kids know if they have a 'supply' timetabled that afternoon they are in for a doss lesson. Some people think that if a kid has a teacher for their subject that the teacher actually knows the subject being taught, which is increasingly not the case. Some people think that if lessons are being planned for those teachers and the teacher just has to 'deliver' them then that will be good enough, which is often not the case.

Exam classes at least used to be protected and given the 'good teachers', which is increasingly no longer the case, with Y11s reporting that they have a variety of supply teachers, even in core subjects.

There was a thread recently where an A-level student hadn't had a teacher for a year, wondering why the school hadn't done anything about it. We cannot magic up teachers! A-level students at my school are increasingly in the position of not having a teacher and having to teach themselves, and schools are now encouraged to put 'no teacher' on UCAS applications as relevant information for universities.

Recent threads about suggesting teachers need to be paid more to boost recruitment, or given a day off a fortnight to boost recruitment have attracted replies about teachers thinking they are special, or lazy, paid well enough already and having enough time off already.

But the education system is in crisis and something needs to drastically change as it's only getting worse.

The DfE's solution is to hire from abroad, at a time when the rest of government is seeking to reduce immigration.
https://www.tes.com/magazine/news/general/dfe-mulls-boost-international-recruitment

DfE looks at recruiting more teachers from overseas

Officials want to help schools hire more teachers from overseas amid worsening recruitment crisis

https://www.tes.com/magazine/news/general/dfe-mulls-boost-international-recruitment

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
noblegiraffe · 25/03/2024 21:15

People don’t post on these type of threads

850 posts in two days suggests otherwise.

OP posts:
echt · 25/03/2024 21:15

Icehockeyflowers · 25/03/2024 21:13

echt Maybe it should be moved from chat to the education board?

People don’t post on these type of threads because they always end up the same way with teachers circling around being defensive and sometimes worse.

Posters just drop out so they are probably better suited to just being kept in the education forum. That way they have a better chance of survival.

But people are posting on this thread. No shortage as far as I can see.

Icehockeyflowers · 25/03/2024 21:16

Leah5678 · 25/03/2024 21:13

And do you care to explain how shipping in teachers from abroad would help with behavioural issues or kids with Sen??
What do you think the teachers from abroad would be able to do that teachers currently in the UK can't do?

Theres a lot that needs fixing it but bringing in a load of teachers from abroad is not a good solution

It would increase the number of teachers and address the shortage <sigh>

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

borntobequiet · 25/03/2024 21:18

defensive and sometimes worse

Shocking behaviour, and from people who call themselves professionals. Goodness me.

Icehockeyflowers · 25/03/2024 21:20

noblegiraffe · 25/03/2024 21:15

People don’t post on these type of threads

850 posts in two days suggests otherwise.

But how many are teachers?

Anyway seemingly I’ve played into your hands by continuing to reply and helping to keep it in active. Well played. 🤣

Goodnight y’all.

MrsHamlet · 25/03/2024 21:21

Icehockeyflowers · 25/03/2024 21:16

It would increase the number of teachers and address the shortage <sigh>

Only if those teachers were accustomed to working with students with SEN.

There are some cultural differences which often provide a challenge, especially in relation to SEN.

Leah5678 · 25/03/2024 21:22

Icehockeyflowers · 25/03/2024 21:16

It would increase the number of teachers and address the shortage <sigh>

Until they leave for the same reason British teachers are leaving? The root cause/causes of the issue needs to be addressed not just have a sticky plaster put over it

oakleaffy · 25/03/2024 21:29

Another2Cats · 25/03/2024 19:29

I had the exact same experience.

I know this is wildly off the point, but I literally had the same headteacher in primary school as this guy (quoted below), back in the early 1970s. I am ten years older than him, but the headteacher didn't change.

I'm not in any way endorsing the attitudes of this columnist, but my experience of primary school was very similar. Also, my own DDs experiences of school (the youngest did her A levels 12 years ago) was very different from the current stories I read here.

I had the same headteacher as this guy (although, as girls, we only got to play rounders and netball rather than football and cricket):-

Mr Chips is making a comeback

For four years, from age seven to 11, the most important man in my life, after my father, was Eric Sutton.

I certainly saw more of him than my dad, who was often away on business. Mr Sutton — never Eric, heaven forfend — was there five, sometimes six, days a week.

He was the headmaster of my primary school, an important influence in my formative years. Mr Sutton had the air of a Regimental Sergeant Major and ran the school with military efficiency — not surprising, really, given that he’d served as an NCO in the Army Education Corps during World War II.

He had a piercing parade-ground bark, which could halt small boys in their tracks up to 100 yards away. That said, his bark was worse than his bite.

Mr Sutton was a disciplinarian with a fearsome cane on the wall of his study. I can’t remember him ever wielding it in anger. Maybe I’ve simply forgotten. But the prospect was deterrent enough.

If he did have to administer corporal punishment, it would have been in the spirit of the old adage: This is going to hurt me more than it is going to hurt you, boy.

[...]

Mr Sutton was a great believer in the virtues of sport. Our Dickensian school building didn’t have a playing field, so he’d march us crocodile-style to the local ‘rec’, rain or shine. In winter, we played football, in summer cricket.

After school and on Saturdays, he’d take teams to compete in tournaments. And he expected us to win. Eric Sutton would never settle for second best.

All this team sport was in addition to several sessions of vigorous PE every week and trips to the local open-air swimming pool.

He may have lain great importance on our physical development, but he gave equal — if not more — weight to nurturing our intellectual capacity.

These days, ‘passion’ is a much abused cliche. Every inept reality TV contestant professes their ‘passion’ for everything from fairy cakes to break-dancing. But Mr Sutton really was passionate about education in general and literacy in particular.

It was his ambition to get as many of his pupils as possible into grammar school, which he saw as the gateway to a better future. He succeeded spectacularly, his school regularly topping the table of 11-plus passes.

Some younger readers may think this sounds like a posh prep school for the privileged children of the well-off. Nothing could be further from the truth.

West Town Juniors and Mixed Infants, Williamson Avenue, Peterborough, was what we would now call a ‘bog standard’ state school.

But there was nothing ‘bog standard’ about the ethos instilled by Eric Sutton, who could have held his own in any exclusive fee-paying establishment.

He was a dapper man who always wore a sports jacket, complete with leather patches on the elbows, and cavalry twill trousers. He wouldn’t have been seen dead without a shirt and tie — unlike some of the slovenly scruffs on parade at the teachers’ union conferences every Easter.

Which brings me to the reason I’m taking a trip down Memory Lane today — the news that there has been a significant increase in the number of men training as primary school teachers.

[Edit right-wing rant that I don't wish to be associated with]

All this combined with relatively low wages has conspired against encouraging any young family man to become a primary school teacher.

The good news is that recent changes which allow teachers to earn a salary while they train in school have begun to attract more men into the profession. And the Government has launched a campaign to persuade male graduates to take up a career in primary education.

The numbers applying have risen by 51 per cent, albeit from a low base.

Eric Sutton would have approved.

We to had a magnificent Teacher called ''Foxy''.

It was hardly a surprise to learn that he'd later become a Head Teacher.

Even the really ''Naughty boys'' in the class were quiet as mice under Foxy's ice blue stare.
He tried to get the best out of his students, and really cared.

Foxy gave ''Detentions'' to be held at Break, but he supervised them himself, not giving stupid punishments like ''Lines'', but he'd make people write an essay on something they loved ''But not football or fishing'' as it's too easy.

His classroom was the only one with clean, graffiti free desks, and beautiful posters on the walls.

He was really passionate, History especially.

Rest in Peace, Foxy. I cried when I learned you'd died too young.

haXXor · 25/03/2024 21:33

WearyAuldWumman · 25/03/2024 20:46

Most children go to their catchment schools here in Scotland but there are cases where parents make placing requests.

I wouldn't waste my money on the Edinburgh private schools - I've known of cases where teachers failed in the state sector and then moved to the private sector. (I'm using 'failed' literally for some, as in 'failed their probationary period. At one point, you didn't need to be registered with the GTCS to teach in a private school here, though that has now changed.)

I remember being shocked when I discovered that one of my state school colleagues was making extra money by tutoring pupils who attended a 'prestigious' Edinburgh private school. Imagine spending all that money on a private education and still paying for extra tuition.

The main advantage of going to a private school in Scotland seems to be networking.

My uni boyfriend attended a Glasgow private school. He had some very strange notions about working-class people. I blame it on his education - his father was a lovely chap, a doctor. However, my boyfriend seemed to be overly influenced by his school days. (He first attended a private prep school in Newcastle.)

He finished up changing his major/honours, because he wasn't good enough. (Those who made it to honours were all state school educated, I recall.) He did get his honours degree once he changed course. Thereafter, when he went for job interviews, he made a point of wearing his Old Boys' tie.

Hothousing mediocre men is how the glass ceiling continues, innit.

WearyAuldWumman · 25/03/2024 21:37

haXXor · 25/03/2024 21:33

Hothousing mediocre men is how the glass ceiling continues, innit.

Very true.

Zonder · 25/03/2024 21:38

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 25/03/2024 20:54

And yet there are various comments on this thread (and there are very many other threads that reference this) where people say, from personal experience, that 20+ years ago the issue of disruptive children was handled very differently and that, in any event, this wasn't such a big issue back then.

What has changed in the last twenty years (or, particularly, in the last five or so years) to make this such a much more challenging issue than it used to be?

Lots has changed. Many children are not brought up to do as they are told. Their parents make excuses for their poor behaviour and refuse to cooperate with detentions etc. Many kids have the view (backed up by parents) that people can't tell them what to do.

A massive increase in students with SEN in mainstream schools.

A focus on inclusion, and pressure on schools not to suspend and expell students.

Falling budgets and a lack of qualified, experienced teachers. Or in some cases teachers at all.

A decreased tolerance for robustness in dealing with really bad behaviour. Teachers being reprimanded for not speaking gently enough to rude, aggressive, badly-behaved students. Teachers actually being disciplined for shouting, even as a one-off.

A curriculum that is too demanding for weaker students, leading to frustration and disengagement.

Increasing addiction to phones and social media, resulting in poor attention spans, poor self-esteem and poor personal skills.

Fall-out from Covid in various ways.

Hope this helps answer your question @Another2Cats

I would diagree with some of these points however, and would add others.

I'd add a curriculum that actually is a bit rubbish for most children
I'm all for inclusion but it has to be managed and resourced properly.
I'd also add all the pointless extra stresses schools put on students and teachers.

Aj485 · 25/03/2024 21:52

So, the teachers don't want to be there, most of the kids don't want to be there, the parents have had enough of battling the school run parking fiasco as have the local residents unfortunate enough to live within a mile of the place. To top it off, the government's had enough of the namby-pamby lefty teachers whinging about pay and conditions when the majority of them have never been in the real world since coming of age.

Just like office jobs post-covid, we can all see where this is going and the writing's on the wall ... A hybrid learning system.

Can't happen soon enough.

Johnthesensible · 25/03/2024 21:55

My relative is a higher teaching assistant. She teaches all day every day as a teacher on her own. She loves the job but sees teachers having babies who never return, teachers who leave to do online teaching and others who retire early or do something else for less money.

Kids do not listen, loads have 'needs'. Very much a me me me environment. Parents who fail to turn up on time, don't wash their kids clothes, don't feed them properly. Kids who refuse to not stop using their phones, harrassment of girls. These are primary kids.

Is it any wonder....

Zonder · 25/03/2024 22:23

How do you see that hybrid model working @Aj485 ?

cardibach · 25/03/2024 22:38

Icannotbudget · 25/03/2024 19:44

My point was there are teachers out there still applying for jobs. I do think teaching, in common with many professions is stressful and challenging. I also think standards and expectations for the teaching profession have increased enormously since I was at school over 30 years ago. This is a good thing but inevitably drives some people out of the profession. With reference to Newly qualified teachers- some will not be suited, for 101 reasons. They will leave (this is normal) or will fail and be managed out. Again- normal and happens everywhere not just teaching.

Some teachers, yes. Nobody is saying there are none. But a school you say is very good only got 2 applicants suitable to interview. That’s not good. It suggests a shortage of people applying for jobs.

DisabledDemon · 25/03/2024 22:44

Smilingbutdying · 24/03/2024 13:20

And yet the Open University has managed and thrived for half a century. How can they make distance learning work but no one else can? (Genuine question)

The Open University is used by people who want to get a qualification and are prepared to pay for it - so, if you don't study, you have wasted your money (and it's not cheap). It's an impressive achievement to get your BA/MA etc as many people are working at the same time.

I must admit, I was very struck by a Language Paper that I was working through with a student last week. One of the sources for the paper was from I am Malala. Compare the difference between a young woman who was shot for her belief in education for girls and many of our GCSE (and younger) students who can be barely be bothered to get out of bed for their lessons and if they do, come in with a poor attitude and barely veiled aggression.

Like I've said before, you wouldn't get me back into a classroom at the point of a gun.

LorlieS · 25/03/2024 22:46

I've been a qualified teacher (primary) for 20 years this year. Leaving in September (at the age of 43). Back to uni to do a Masters and not planning on returning to education in the long-term.

noblegiraffe · 25/03/2024 22:51

While reading the sentimental drivel from Richard Littlejohn posted upthread, one bit stuck out:

All this combined with relatively low wages has conspired against encouraging any young family man to become a primary school teacher.

Which, funnily enough, is exactly the argument I was making upthread. If a teacher salary is good, where are all the male teachers?

From the School Workforce Survey "Gender makeup of the teaching workforce is consistent over time, and is predominantly female; 76% in 2022/23.
Male teachers are more likely to work in secondary schools than nurseries and primary schools: 14% of nursery and primary school teachers are male, 35% of secondary school teachers and 25% of special schools and PRU teachers"

OP posts:
LorlieS · 25/03/2024 22:56

@noblegiraffe Assuming of course the man is the main and/or sole earner?
I'm a teacher and earn more than my husband.

Stmstm · 25/03/2024 23:02

For posters who would like an online model or the likes of Oak Academy -

who will report the safeguarding concerns to the relevant authorities?
Who will report back to social workers and police?
Who will a child be able to talk to about the domestic violence they may have witnessed the night before?
Who will make a child breakfast because there wasn’t any food in the house?
Who will implement the strategies suggested by Education psychologist?
Who will implement the strategies suggested by speech and language?
Who will report back to the SENDCo in order to for them to complete the EHCP paperwork required?
Who will produce school reports?
Who will be the person parents see at parents evening?
Who will facilitate school trips and residential school trips?
Who will sort out the bullying happening outside of school time on social media?

I could go on, the list is endless.

Currently, the above is done by teachers who know their pupils because they have a relationship with them. Oak academy won’t be able to do any of the above.

Being a teacher is more than teaching a child fractions.

Moglet4 · 25/03/2024 23:03

Smilingbutdying · 24/03/2024 13:12

But it is a good salary for a new graduate working 40 weeks.

I don’t think I’ve ever known a teacher who works 40 weeks. I certainly didn’t. The salary also isn’t for 40 weeks

ijustneedtokeepbreathing · 25/03/2024 23:08

cantkeepawayforever · 25/03/2024 16:58

The thing is, to do 7/8 of 960 involves a number of skills:

  • Knowing what the denominator of a fraction means (number of parts)
  • Using this (applying previous learning from fractions of a shape) to know that 960 must be divided by 8
  • Either recognising 96 as a multiple of 8 and knowing how to apply that knowledge to 96 x 10 or
  • Being able to use an efficient method to divide 960 by 8 directly
  • Knowing what the numerator of a fraction means.
  • Applying this to know that the answer of 120 must be multiplied by 7
  • Either using 12x7, then x10 or an efficient written method to multiply by 7

None of these individual skills is beyond a Y4 working at the expected level. However - in a world where you can get a 3 in foundation level GCSE Maths using only Maths from the primary curriculum - is it sensible to choose to assess a Y4 on their ability to combine this knowledge in this particular way? Or would it be more sensible, and better for their Maths long term, to really teach and probe each skill individually to ensure that every step is properly secure, embedded, revisited, ready to be built on through the next 7 years of mandatory Maths teaching?

We do pupils no favours by rushing through the basics. Probe children on their ability to identify unit and proper fractions. Teach them tables until they have full automaticity. Recognise factors and multiples, until fluency is reached. Rehearse how to apply them to multiply and divide multiples of 10, 100, 1000 - not just once, but again and again until they can see that calculation in any context and be able to do it. Teach unit fractions as division with small numbers until the equivalence of fractions and devision is as clear as the equivalent between ‘add’ and the symbol ‘+’. Rehearse 2 step calculations, in any order, mentally and in written form.

Once a child has all those skills at their fingertips, then combining them
in any way is easy. Building tottering multi-step towers on shaky foundations is a waste of time and effort, long term.

@cantkeepawayforever yes, this.

noblegiraffe · 25/03/2024 23:35

LorlieS · 25/03/2024 22:56

@noblegiraffe Assuming of course the man is the main and/or sole earner?
I'm a teacher and earn more than my husband.

Given the gender pay gap, the male is more likely to be a higher earner.

Let's not forget also, that the gender pay gap in teaching is particularly bad.

When men go into teaching, they head for the better paid roles.

https://www.tes.com/magazine/news/general/gender-pay-gap-education-teaching-women-work-free

"Pay penalties abound in the predominantly female education workforce.”
Female teachers and support staff “are consistently undervalued and overworked”, he added.
Women with caring responsibilities and those who manage to secure part-time work are “denied pay progression, denied promotion and many are pushed out of their jobs and out of the profession”, he said. Those who stay take longer than their male counterparts to achieve leadership positions"

Female teachers ‘work 81 days a year for free’

Teachers and education staff in England face the second biggest gender pay gap of any sector, according to new research

https://www.tes.com/magazine/news/general/gender-pay-gap-education-teaching-women-work-free

OP posts:
LorlieS · 25/03/2024 23:57

@noblegiraffe I agree to some extent. In all of the primary schools I have worked in it seems very much that the male teachers are instantly given far more respect; both by students and parents alike.
It doesn't surprise me one iota they progress up the career ladder and into SLT positions far more easily and quickly.
Quite a number of people also assume that teaching is a "family friendly" job. It certainly isn't.

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