England is running out of teachers

[noblegiraffe]

Or, to be clear, people who are willing to teach in schools. It has plenty of ex teachers who have vowed never to set foot in a school again.

While everyone seems to understand that you can't expect to see a doctor or dentist anymore, the message about not being able to expect your child to have a teacher anymore doesn't seem to have filtered through in the same way.

The number of cover lessons that kids are having is going through the roof. Some people think that if a kid has an adult in front of them then they are learning something, where kids know if they have a 'supply' timetabled that afternoon they are in for a doss lesson. Some people think that if a kid has a teacher for their subject that the teacher actually knows the subject being taught, which is increasingly not the case. Some people think that if lessons are being planned for those teachers and the teacher just has to 'deliver' them then that will be good enough, which is often not the case.

Exam classes at least used to be protected and given the 'good teachers', which is increasingly no longer the case, with Y11s reporting that they have a variety of supply teachers, even in core subjects.

There was a thread recently where an A-level student hadn't had a teacher for a year, wondering why the school hadn't done anything about it. We cannot magic up teachers! A-level students at my school are increasingly in the position of not having a teacher and having to teach themselves, and schools are now encouraged to put 'no teacher' on UCAS applications as relevant information for universities.

Recent threads about suggesting teachers need to be paid more to boost recruitment, or given a day off a fortnight to boost recruitment have attracted replies about teachers thinking they are special, or lazy, paid well enough already and having enough time off already.

But the education system is in crisis and something needs to drastically change as it's only getting worse.

The DfE's solution is to hire from abroad, at a time when the rest of government is seeking to reduce immigration.
https://www.tes.com/magazine/news/general/dfe-mulls-boost-international-recruitment

I couldn't divide a four digit number by eight in my head and would struggle to do it on paper. The method I outlined broke it into smaller problems that are answered using memorised outcomes from the 12 times table.

When programming, software developers break things into steps for readability and ease of understanding. Someone who tries to daisy-chain several operations onto one line will get a flea in their ear during code review. My method is what seems natural to me, given that common practice.

Check the thread debating whether school holidays should be shortened.

You said 'many threads', not one. And please quote a teacher from that thread who said they chose teaching as a career because of the holidays.

There are behaviour issues in every school including private schools.
What do they do differently that means disruptive kids don’t take over the classroom.

What do they do? They don't have special skills that state school teachers don't. They have smaller class sizes and they can kick kids out whenever they like (which is very difficult for state schools to do). But mainly they have a different intake.

In my year 4 class (I'm a TA) out of 26 children I do interventions with 14 of them. 4 of them have a reading age of under 4 years old and another 5 are at least 3 years behind, but they won't read at home and their parents don't care. 7 of them are at year 1 level in Maths but don't do any further practise at home on the basics. These children when in class are meant to follow the year 4 curriculum are only going to get further behind because there aren't enough hours in the day to catch them all up. I love and care for all of them but nothing is more heart breaking than putting a year 4 SPAG or reasoning paper in front of a child that can't read and telling them to do their best for the next 45 minutes.

Er, to quote your own words 'many threads' - OK, so I think we'd all like to know where these 'many threads' are?

I have enough dignity not to lower myself to respond to you in kind.

This made me laugh when you've already had a post deleted for making a personal attack.

Most children go to their catchment schools here in Scotland but there are cases where parents make placing requests.

I wouldn't waste my money on the Edinburgh private schools - I've known of cases where teachers failed in the state sector and then moved to the private sector. (I'm using 'failed' literally for some, as in 'failed their probationary period. At one point, you didn't need to be registered with the GTCS to teach in a private school here, though that has now changed.)

I remember being shocked when I discovered that one of my state school colleagues was making extra money by tutoring pupils who attended a 'prestigious' Edinburgh private school. Imagine spending all that money on a private education and still paying for extra tuition.

The main advantage of going to a private school in Scotland seems to be networking.

My uni boyfriend attended a Glasgow private school. He had some very strange notions about working-class people. I blame it on his education - his father was a lovely chap, a doctor. However, my boyfriend seemed to be overly influenced by his school days. (He first attended a private prep school in Newcastle.)

He finished up changing his major/honours, because he wasn't good enough. (Those who made it to honours were all state school educated, I recall.) He did get his honours degree once he changed course. Thereafter, when he went for job interviews, he made a point of wearing his Old Boys' tie.

Surely the answer is to pay the teachers more so people actually want to do the job instead of shipping in people from abroad who won't mind being paid little?

Being paid more won’t improve behavioural issues? Or teachers being expected to teach SEN kids who they say need to be in a different setting? Or prevent horrific violence such as the teacher being hit in the stomach resulting in miscarriage. All the money in the world won’t help.

A poster just below your post mentioned a birth rate boom in 2012 which has gone down since so what will all the foreign teachers do when there's less demand for secondary school teachers in ten years anyway?

It might mean class sizes could be smaller which would help everyone? Worrying about ten years time is when there is an urgency now - who knows what state the world will be in by then. Look at Ukraine relocating everywhere.

Did I? I honestly hadn’t realised. Oh maybe it was the one to Dora. It wasn’t a personal attack really but it was written to annoy her so fair enough.

Out of interest, what did and do you hope to achieve by this thread?

Imagine spending all that money on a private education and still paying for extra tuition

This very common in Australia. There's a far greater percentage of children in private/Catholic education, about 36% and they still bring in the tutors. I know, I'm a tutor. The mind boggles.

And yet there are various comments on this thread (and there are very many other threads that reference this) where people say, from personal experience, that 20+ years ago the issue of disruptive children was handled very differently and that, in any event, this wasn't such a big issue back then.

What has changed in the last twenty years (or, particularly, in the last five or so years) to make this such a much more challenging issue than it used to be?

Lots has changed. Many children are not brought up to do as they are told. Their parents make excuses for their poor behaviour and refuse to cooperate with detentions etc. Many kids have the view (backed up by parents) that people can't tell them what to do.

A massive increase in students with SEN in mainstream schools.

A focus on inclusion, and pressure on schools not to suspend and expell students.

Falling budgets and a lack of qualified, experienced teachers. Or in some cases teachers at all.

A decreased tolerance for robustness in dealing with really bad behaviour. Teachers being reprimanded for not speaking gently enough to rude, aggressive, badly-behaved students. Teachers actually being disciplined for shouting, even as a one-off.

A curriculum that is too demanding for weaker students, leading to frustration and disengagement.

Increasing addiction to phones and social media, resulting in poor attention spans, poor self-esteem and poor personal skills.

Fall-out from Covid in various ways.

I don't want to be paid more.
I just want my school budget to be fair so that I don't have to buy my pupils breakfast, stationary and reading books.
I just want my SEN pupils to have properly funded support staff
And I just want my school to be able to afford a decent printer/photocopier and tech. So that I can get on with...you know... teaching?!

I don't think that's unreasonable, actually.

You hadn't realised your dignity was long gone?

what did and do you hope to achieve by this thread?

I answered that a long while back. To bring to parents' attention the state of the situation in English schools.

That the country is running out of teachers.

I've often seen posted on MN 'How are parents supposed to know what is going on when schools and teachers won't tell them?'.

So here I am.

I have enough dignity not to lower myself to respond to you in kind.

Not sure what you mean. I wasn't especially rude. I just said you must be imagining these many threads where teachers said they'd become teachers because of the holidays. You haven't provided any evidence, so I take it I'm correct. You've mentioned one thread, but not quoted any post from it that backs up your claim.

I think it's fairly obvious. @noblegiraffe consistently keeps the state of education, particularly that of funding and the teaching profession, continually front and centre on MN.

If you were on MN during the lockdowns you'd have noticed the shitstorm of criticism of teachers. It all melted away when schools went back, proving to my mind that the overwhelming majority of parents posting on MN saw schools as childcare and had no care about, for instance, funding.

Ditto. Science teacher here!

And me. DTteacher. Trying to teach with no equipment or stuff that didn’t work.

So relieved to have got out.

I can’t copy and paste posts from
another thread, that isn’t fair on the teacher/poster but read the thread about the holidays and you will see the posts.

But there is no requirement for them to be trained teachers, at lest not in high school. Our current group of supply teachers have also been all from abroad (not always a bad thing) and have admitted they are only here for the money. They don't seem to care about actually teaching, yes we have had good supply teachers in the past and often the best one's are the retired teachers just doing it for extra money. But they are getting less and less.

I agree with you generally about teachers but, as an example: My DH has a degree and I have an MA but neither of us have managed to earn 30k in the past nearly 20 years.

Our gen was very affected by the financial crisis and the ensuing Tory policies which brought in the zero hours/gig economy hostile working environment.

Despite all the technological advances in that time, gen z look to be poorer in opportunity, with less headspace to recover from a high stress working environment. (increasing demands for decreasing rewards) AI will have taken most of the stimulating and creative jobs soon too. So I can understand why a young person would see a starting salary of 30k as a win in that context.

I didn't leave teaching because of kids behaviour, salary or hours. It was the expectation to be Outstanding all the time in a School rated Good.

I was fed up with all the criticism about how I taught based on my Head of Department spending five minutes in a lesson.

My students were getting higher than expected grades and I was criticized for going against the curve.

Surgeons can be good and occasionally outstanding and just be left to it. Teachers are totally scrutinized continuously with no real need.

You missed the bit where they previously claimed that they were on a starting salary of £30k just with some dodgy A-levels.

They then admitted to the degree (from an elite university) when it was pointed out you need a degree to be a teacher.

In other news, we are also running out of supply teachers https://schoolsweek.co.uk/supply-teachers-second-class-citizens-as-pay-stagnates/

echt Maybe it should be moved from chat to the education board?

People don’t post on these type of threads because they always end up the same way with teachers circling around being defensive and sometimes worse.

Posters just drop out so they are probably better suited to just being kept in the education forum. That way they have a better chance of survival.

And do you care to explain how shipping in teachers from abroad would help with behavioural issues or kids with Sen??
What do you think the teachers from abroad would be able to do that teachers currently in the UK can't do?

Theres a lot that needs fixing it but bringing in a load of teachers from abroad is not a good solution

@Icannotbudget

My point was there are teachers out there still applying for jobs

Not in all areas and all subjects. Some schools can't find teachers for computer science, maths, science, MFL. It's a bit of a nightmare for schools at the moment. The younger staff are all leaving in droves & schools have lots of us in our 40s & 50s who are still there come what may. Not sure what will happen when we all retire.