Do you believe those who are religious

[Toobluntt]

have lower intelligence, in general because they believe in a God, than non believers/non religious people?

I ask because I saw a comment as such on another thread in AIBU, and it's something I've heard/read before, that some people (obviously non-believers) question the intelligence of those who believe in God, or follow an organised religion.

I am not saying this is what I believe, I'm just genuinely interested to know if this is a commonly held view, or not, and if so, why you think this way.

Whilst I am not particularly concerned with intelligence tests in themselves. Since you are so keen to champion the absolute irrefutable fact of IQ test as identical with intelligence, perhaps you would be interested to read some of the many many studies and books which question the content and validity of the IQ test. For example, the challenge to the internal bias towards middle class , white forms of knowledge category.in the test. The test is widely challenged as a limited and potentially flawed tool. Here is just one example from Yale publications linked below. Before you shoot me down, I do not necessarily agree with everything in these publications , but post them by way of illustration that science itself is a provisional, constantly reviewed process. I am only suggesting we are all open to the limitations of our perspective and allow for and engage with genuine enquiry. Thanks
https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300164626/what-intelligence-tests-miss/

Yes, but not quite on an antivax level of low intelligence. Religion is generally partly indoctrination rather than purely lack of logical thought.
Have a lower opinion on adult converts intelligence than people who are religious since childhood though.

So why are we still fighting, hating, bullying, beating up teachers, oppressing poor and sick people, killing each other and hoarding wealth for ourselves? We don't have that figured out yet or are trying to stop it.

Because we are, like any other species, not perfect and we ultimately want our own genes to survive and reproduce.

Why are you so surprised by this? And what, in your opinion, is a supposed God doing to alleviate such pain and suffering?

Not a believer myself. But if people’s faith gives them support and structure and meaning to their lives, I wish them well.

As for intelligence, my Mum knew an astrophysicist who was also a devout Catholic.

It's up to us to alleviate pain and suffering if that's within our power. God isn't some pocket magician that we appeal to when we want something doing.

And many people manage to get through life and pass their genes on without bullying, killing, stealing from or oppressing others.

Yes I have managed it so far and I'm an atheist 😊

"I am have a Masters in Theology"

Of course you do I thought as much.

"you seem to imply I am ignorant"

I didn't say that you are ignorant in general. I am saying and everyone can see that you are ignorant about our current scientific understanding of human intelligence and the IQ tests that measure its various aspects. And you are.

You know some... words. And you manage to put them together in long sentences that seem respectable and credible. However, there is no real understanding behind them.

Why not see a neuropsychologist and ask to take the WAIS-IV, the standard IQ test of our day. At the very least, you would learn something - not just about intelligence testing but also about yourself.

Can you tell me more about people like yourself who wholly view the world objectively @CoteDAzur?

Lol I don't have a religious faith at all, but don't have the need to be arsey towards those who do.

We would say that God influences your life regardless of whether you believe in Him, but I guess that won't go down well 😂

You'll have to ask a theologian about that. I don't have the depth of knowledge to explain how it was back in the OT times.

www.therepublic.com/2020/09/05/did_god_change_from_the_old_testament_to_the_new/ www.therepublic.com/2020/09/05/did_god_change_from_the_old_testament_to_the_new/]]]]

I just Googled and found this. I have read explanations in the past, but have forgotten what they said 🙈

No indeed 😀

I can't speak for anyone else. What I do know is that I have no beliefs, and indeed no convictions at all that I can't explain the rational basis for.

It is just not true that everybody believes in something they can't question or justify.

Theists question and justify their belief in their God.

It's your belief that you are objective about everything that I am asking about. When and how did you come to belive this @CoteDAzur?

And it doesn’t bother you that you live your life according to the tenets of a faith whose deity, in part of the faith’s key sacred text, behaves like a pathologically moody toddler, blatantly favouring one bunch of people, punishing others by visiting plagues on them or killing their children, requiring devotees to execute their children to prove their devotion before allowing them to substitute an animal at the last moment?

Theists question and justify their belief in their God.

What questions do they ask and what evidence is used to justify their belief in their God?

You'd have to ask them @Lalupalina. Faith is subjective, so the answer will vary from person to person. However few theists will claim unwavering faith at all times. Most, if not all, question it at some points. It's well known and documented, the "long dark night of the soul".

I wouldn’t describe myself as a ‘hateful’ person because i don’t trust the judgement of religious people. I also don’t actively tell religious people I meet that they are stupid. We just look at things very differently and have little in common because of that. Obviously it also depends to what degree a person is religious.

A couple of examples I can give you:

-I once attended a church service with some friends I made abroad, shortly after a natural disaster had been in the news. The vicar led a prayer to god, asking god asking to god to help them think of ways to help the victims of the disaster. In my mind, i was wondering why they need to ask for help from god. Are either ‘go out to the country to help’ or ‘donate money’ not the obvious answers here?

-I attended a bar mitzvah in a synagogue, where the women had to sit separately from men, on a higher level further away from the torahs etc, literally as though they are not as important as men. The attendees can have has many scientific qualifications or as many law degrees as they like, but accepting women as been secondary in importance isn’t very intelligent to me.

Also, you refer to us making people feel stupid. Well, there are definitely things in life that people do or think that are stupid and we can’t get away from that.

I think it’s also incredibly country and society specific. I’m on the fringes of a ferociously intelligent group of very senior civil servants, lawyers, policy maker & media Christians. We’ll happily pray together and talk about His plan for eg. I doubt my grandparents parishes in the 40’s/ 50’s or Christians in Idaho or Muslims in a farming village in India would be the same.

"Meta-analysis" of some clown's concocted discrediting theory about a relationship between intelligence and religiosity by atheists seeking to promote their own subjective position to something apparently closer to objectivity sounds like a cross between some YouTube "influencer"'s self-promoting selfie-sneer and a Bozo Johnson political campaign for "cognitive sovereignty" plastered along the side of a prison bus.

It's nonsense.

Well, underthinking like this seems to bear out the results of the studies.

I am.not sure why you are so angry about this. I really do not have to put up with being insulted. If, by your comment 'of course you are' you are implying that because I have a Masters in Theology I am 'of a type', you are revealing more about your own position and bias than I ever have. I also have a Masters in Education, which is a social scientist and requires analysis of data and research methodology. Please don't reduce your arguments to insults, it benefits nobody. You suggest I take the IQ test. Thank you for the idea. If I need to find out my IQ, I will. Similarly, if I want to find out more about the debate on intelligence and religious belief, I will use a more diverse and pertinent selection of material and sources, as per my original post. I do not feel I particularly need to learn 'something about myself' by taking an IQ test. I wonder where you would begin this process?
I have written numerous times on here that I do not dispute the findings of the IQ test studies within their own terms of reference. I have not struggled in any way to understand what an IQ test is, or what is seeks to measure (although I can see this accusation.is central to your attack on me). You say I know some words' but there is 'no understanding behind them'. I fear the person without understanding and with a narrow perspective here is you. I am not going to engage further because you have now demonstrated to me not only that you are rude and offensive, but that you have no intention of trying to understand it engage with any position which might challenge your own. A fundamentalist cam be found in many fields. If you are genuinely interested in the debate and not in just bashing what you see as the foolish opposition, I refer you to my post up thread, which has a link to one of numerous credible publications (the eg is from Yale publications) on the challenges to the iQ test in particular, and intelligence tests in general. Perhaps you will engage with a work which is written in the only language you seem to understand, scientific discourse. With best my wishes, I send an apology if i have upset you with my position; you really do come across as quite aggressive. It is shame this has prevented me from engaging with what could, on other terms, have been interesting conversation.

Your lack of understanding seems to confirm the results of these studies.