Are some children just born horrible?

[Courteneycrocs]

Hear me out. I know there are environmental reason, poor upbringing for example. Learnt and even taught poor behaviour being another. Attention seeking being a common cause too.
But aside from those reasons causing poor behaviour/bullies, have you come across children who are just plain horrible for no reason and with no cause?
As there are adults who are just generally nasty whether at work, relatives, acquaintances and the likes, everyone is capable of being horrible and it isn’t age dependent, sometimes it’s a choice.
If you ever mention a child who is known for poor behaviour or attitude, they’re often labelled SEN or ‘they can’t help it, it’s xyz’. Sometimes noted as the ‘naughty child’ if no excuses are made. But the general gist is that there are always excuses. The parents are always blamed even if they have done their best. No one ever stops and thinks, actually that child is just horrible.
If a 10 year old child broke your baby’s toy, damaged something expensive in your home and laughed, stole something from a shop, told lies to hurt someone, called someone names, disrespects rules and adults and never uses manners would you consider them a horrible child or just raised poorly? Would your answer be based on assumptions from seeing the parents or only if you know how they’re being raised?
If the same child was 5 years old would your answer be the same?

(No offence meant to anyone who may not like this post, it isn’t aimed at anyone or to start a heated debate, posting out of genuine curiosity after a conversation I had with a teacher friend).

@WhatsTheUseOfWorrying and disconnect the wifi

I don’t think anyone is born bad. There’s always a reason.

The children I know who have been in that place all have a background of ND plus issue in the family (think emotional or financial abuse from the father, father disappearing from the children life or telling them up front they are hindrance).

Extremely challenging behaviour for the parents, even more so when other siblings are involved.

And no support at all. Whether it’s SS, GPs etc….

@VillageOnSmile

My friend took him to the GP years ago, eventually he was assessed and no autism/additional needs was found. She asked for a second opinion, he was assessed again and they said the same thing.

She contacted social work who sent a family support worker to her when she explained about the fires and knives and the attacks on the younger sibling/other children in class/children at the park/friends children/the hamster.

The school are aware but said that she has to continue with triple p. The school said he's frustrated.

Her husband is a kind man, an active parent and they're great parents together. There's no neglect, no abuse, no dv, no brain injury, etc. The younger brother is absolutely fine and a lovely child but is petrified of his older brother. The older brother can be so charming but he controls and manipulates everything and flies off the handle if things don't go his way.

The short answer is yes they are

I think it's 50/50 nature nurture.

You need a personality predisposed to being unkind and the right environment for this to be nurtured.

Well seeing as we can take a wolf and breed it into dogs with different personailites and traits, such as gentleness or pure aggression, the same can happen in human animals.
Some kids are born with dominant genes of aggression and some with dominant genes of passivity.

Of course it happens, we can observe it in nature all the time!

Some kids are born wrong.

Ok let's accept that it's as simplistic and reductive as some kids are born wrong.

What do we do about it ?

Drown them at birth on someone's feeling?
Institutionalise them at 5?

Give up on them?

Send them to a remote island to fend for themselves?

Interesting choice of words there. Right in your first sentence.. "breed".

Rarely. But psychopaths and sociopaths do exist.

Some kids come out difficult, demanding and defiant. Some come out easy going, sweet natured and obedient. The latter can be parented by any half decent parent and will probably turn into mostly decent human beings. The former group require expert, sensitive, responsive parenting. Even then they might always be more ‘difficult’, even if they go on to be decent, successful people. I think parenting is important - you can screw up an easy kid and make a difficult child blossom - but fundamental nature is the main determinant of how a child will turn out.

This is true of my 2, I’ve one of each. As a very experienced teacher and EWO once told me though “challenging children make interesting adults”. Bloody hard work though.

Yes, I reckon so.
I genuinely think that some are. I have met people who are mean to their very core. From seemingly normal families.

Institutionalise them at 5? Maybe not 5 but yes- I think some children should be put into care as they are a risk to others.

My friends kid has hurt children so bad they’ve been hospitalised.

It’s unacceptable.

Although I think in some case some kids need exorcising!

@Bibblybumblebee so what made YOU such a nasty adult?

I'm sure there are a small number of people just born like that but I doubt that it would be possible to tell the difference between them and those that can become better people with the right approach.

I understand why people would disagree with me. However I’ve seen people lives ruined by this kid.
The parents have split as the dad didn’t want to live in the same house as this child.
My friend fears for her own safety and her other children. He stopped her having anymore children as she genuinely thought he would harm the baby. He has tortured and killed animals and gets great enjoyment from causing pain.

I took a knife to my daughters birthday party to cut my daughter’s cake and he got hold of it and came after my husband with this knife. If we hadn’t of got it of him he’d have stabbed someone.

Shes tried to get help but keeps hitting brick walls.

Hes soon going to be bigger than her.

so @PaperDoIIs whats the answer?

I think, in my experience, children are constantly reacting to what is happening around them, forming their own personalities, testing those around them, and surprisingly, they can re-shape themselves and change.

My second DS grew up in the shadow or his "perfect" older brother. He and I fought all through his childhood and I could never understand his behaviour (put it down to bad influence coming from in-laws family). When he was 16, DH had an affair, walked out of our marriage and home. After a year of turmoil and testing limits with me and with his father, my son transformed into a brave, loyal, and wonderful person. 3 years later, he is working, living at home, and we have an excellent relationship and he has developed into a kind, empathetic person.

There’s a difference between bad and evil.

I think it’s very rare to be born evil but it happens.

My friends with a horrendously behaved / lacking in empathy type DS are not hard up. They are not bad people either.

I'm interested to read that psychopathy is inherited. The mother in this family had a no good, alcoholic father she is NC with, who her mother left when she was very tiny.
It could maybe help explain why this kid is how he is. It's so so awful. I do really feel for them.

I don’t have DC who could be described as “bad” but I do have 2 (out of 4 DC) who have gone on to be diagnosed with ADHD, and there was something strikingly different about their eye contact from day 1, and in their behaviour as babies.

One is a twin (and the other twin doesn’t have ADHD) & they are different genders, so it wasn’t bias on my part. And they are wonderful in many different ways. So not a “bad” thing, but they were undoubtedly born with different brain wiring, it didn’t happen later. I have ADHD too (which I didn’t know until later) and I believe it is genetic.

With one of my youngest, I remember her looking into my eyes in hospital, a couple of days after birth, and I thought “whatever DS1 has, she has it too!”, as he was still being investigated at the time. Just the absolutely intensity, which the other two - neurotypical and calmer - DC didn’t have.

So, if there is a psychopathy gene then I can well believe that there can be differences as babies.

I would say there's always a reason. We might not be able to get to the bottom of it. And it might come down to psychopathy. But surely that's another type of neurodivergence?

Of course it's perfectly fine to say you experience the effects of this behaviour as horrible, upsetting, traumatic etc...

But I can't see how being born with psychopathic tendencies is a child's choice or fault.

I don't think children are a blank slate, I think some people have an in built propensity for less pleasant human character traits.

Environmental factors - parents, siblings, peers and random chance can mitigate or exacerbate these characteristics though.

Oh dear, i really feel for your friend, she must live in terror. I would imagine we will be reading about this one too in years to come.

This sounds really hard for your friend @Bibblybumblebee. If this child has killed and tortured animals surely that flags something up and your friend can ask to get him into child therapy or get a psychiatrist intervention? That's a known trait which leads to escalation when an adult (ie to humans!!!). It sounds awful for her and the family.

No, The parents begged for help, the school begged for help but they were seen as middle class therefore good parents. As the father was serving with the military no civilian agency wanted to be involved. This was over 2 decades ago, i truly hope things would be different now.