Are some children just born horrible?

[Courteneycrocs]

Hear me out. I know there are environmental reason, poor upbringing for example. Learnt and even taught poor behaviour being another. Attention seeking being a common cause too.
But aside from those reasons causing poor behaviour/bullies, have you come across children who are just plain horrible for no reason and with no cause?
As there are adults who are just generally nasty whether at work, relatives, acquaintances and the likes, everyone is capable of being horrible and it isn’t age dependent, sometimes it’s a choice.
If you ever mention a child who is known for poor behaviour or attitude, they’re often labelled SEN or ‘they can’t help it, it’s xyz’. Sometimes noted as the ‘naughty child’ if no excuses are made. But the general gist is that there are always excuses. The parents are always blamed even if they have done their best. No one ever stops and thinks, actually that child is just horrible.
If a 10 year old child broke your baby’s toy, damaged something expensive in your home and laughed, stole something from a shop, told lies to hurt someone, called someone names, disrespects rules and adults and never uses manners would you consider them a horrible child or just raised poorly? Would your answer be based on assumptions from seeing the parents or only if you know how they’re being raised?
If the same child was 5 years old would your answer be the same?

(No offence meant to anyone who may not like this post, it isn’t aimed at anyone or to start a heated debate, posting out of genuine curiosity after a conversation I had with a teacher friend).

So I assume that SS are involved, therapists, psychologists,psychiatrists, CAHMS etc.?

Many on MN would tell you he obviously needs to reflect on the thinking step and less screen time.

🙄

the movie is interesting too

The children I know who have been in that place all have a background of ND plus issue in the family (think emotional or financial abuse from the father, father disappearing from the children life or telling them up front they are hindrance).

Extremely challenging behaviour for the parents, even more so when other siblings are involved.

And no support at all. Whether it’s SS, GPs etc….

From what I’ve seen happening to a couple of friends/acquaintances, the help is extremely thin on the ground.
And tbh, can actually be a hindrance too (I’m thinking SS advice there!)

@EveSix The child you know that creates drama. That is my sister. I used to feel very sorry for her but she is an expert manipulator. One of my older sisters once said trouble follows her about and she was correct. It was of her own making. She also seemed to hate any of her siblings being happy. He was obviously also a shit but she had an affair with one of the other sisters husbands. They ran off and disappeared fro a few years. She returned and our Mother took her in. It traumatised our sister so much she ended up in a psychiatric hospital, our younger sister has never shown any remorse. She then attempted to seduce my DH on a visit to my house when she was staying a few days. He however told me straight away, plus my friends who came round also clocked it. She then sent a message to him, saying it would be funny to upset me. Again he showed me. I pulled away. Mum died a few years later so all contact was cut totally by all of us.

It’s interesting to see examples of cruelty to animals on the thread by people with really awful siblings I only know of my sister burning insects but that’s bad enough. I have read it’s a trait of psychopathy. Her children are dreadful, one of the last times I saw them was when they were teens and one was laughing how he had thrown someone down a flight of stairs and she was also laughing. I had my DS older, she had her kids very young. I kept my DS away from them.

I think we are have the capacity to be cruel and behave in a despicable way given a certain set of circumstances or environment. The general personality/nature of the child is inborn and will then be shaped for better or worse by the environment they grow up in and what they experience in school/society etc.

'We all'

Shit parenting

my son is autistic and 8 and I’m constantly being told how polite and mannerly he is so no it’s not always SEN

some kids really are just horrible bastards as seen in my sons school

I get what you’re saying. How could anyone know a newborn is evil. I felt uneasy holding him. I can’t explain it.

He’s the youngest so would have no idea how long I spent holding his siblings.

Yes my body language probably does say a thousand words. I have avoided him much of his life. I see him once or twice a year I very much doubt my presence in his life has affected his behaviour.

He in my opinion was born bad. I think children can be born evil- people always want to label them with something.

I had a horrible childhood (ignored neglected) but my mother always instilled that we should always be polite yes there were 9 of us and not one had bad behaviour issues including two with autism

I read a statement that said "nature loads the gun and nurture pulls the trigger". That implies that while we may have certain predispositions and tendencies due to our genetics, nurture has the power to shape lives and prevent certain undesirable traits an opportunity to come to the forefront. It seems to make sense.

Yes. It’s to do with brain-wiring. Can be genetic, congenital, neonatal or even later through injury. But it’s physiological. Environment can temper or enhance traits, but they are still there. Look up Phineas Gage to see how our brain health affects our personality.

I technically was that kid .

When I was about 4 , I asked my younger second cousin to come into my room to see my dolls and then beat her up with said doll because she sat in my mum's lap. Of course to the adults involved it just seemed to be an out of the blue, premeditated and calculated attack.

I hated (actual hatred) another female cousin for calling my mum mummy.

I got into fights with boys at school , mostly defending myself but it was more difficult/violent behaviour. You know.. one girl against 4 boys, but anyway.

I was hypersexual.

I was quite disruptive and annoying/pain in the butt at school and struggled with authority.

My aunt never liked me and I knew it even as a small kid. It was later confirmed. She swears blind that as a 10 yo, in a city I visited the first time where I knew no one(except them) or anything I lured my male cousin who was 4 years older to a disco. Thing is, regardless of the circumstances it never fucking happened. She insists it is and she always knew I was a bad seed.

I could bore you with my background and the possible reasons why. Or maybe I was just a horrible, spiteful, jealous and insecure kid. However bar those fights , I have never been violent again to another person. Definitely not as an adult. I don't hurt animals or children by word or deed. I'm mostly well adjusted and functioning despite a lot of trauma, neglect and abuse particularly in my teens. It could've gone either way I guess.I work with children and I'm unwilling to dismiss them as bad seeds and try very hard to form trust, bonds and help them learn(not just academically) and heal. There but for the grace of God go I.

@Bibblybumblebee but can you imagine the impact if his mum was thinking like you? Or his dad or anyone that was close to him when he was little?

Could you REALLY say his behaviour was all down to him ‘being bad’ rather than being treated so differently?

I think (young) children often behave the way you expect them to behave.
That includes behaving badly if you think they are a tear away that will always be up to no good. (Your instinctive reaction to them will tell them that)

@PaperDoIIs do you know why you were involved in fights and then not?

This is such a huge switch (and welcome btw) that I’m thinking something must have triggered it?

Or was it the other way around, stuff were triggering the outbursts and once the triggers were gone, you could finally relax and be you again!

Sorry edited to say:
Please ignore my post of you think it’s too personal/unwelcome etc….

I think there is always a reason (maybe genetic, maybe acquired brain damage at birth or after, maybe the environment they grew up in or one random experience of trauma, or the social milieu) but there may be no way to change it and so by the time you encounter them they are just horrible and will never be otherwise.

All it takes is a little bit of damage to the frontal lobe and we all become problematic.

Oh, Vicious, I'm so sorry that happened to you and your other sister. It must have been really hard growing up.

I have really shifted from the 'it's always nurture' (rather than nature) position on this topic -having seen one or two children in my circle of acquaintance who really just seem to have been born without that facility for care and concern for others or any sense of a 'greater good', as well as working with severely traumatised families, where the children, despite incredibly challenging circumstances, remain delightful.

Some of our human traits and features are not equally distributed in all parts of the population: like intelligence, physical strength, empathy, ability to process language, strong teeth ‐some can be supported or stimulated, taught or even induced, but others, it would appear, can't be so easily brought into manifestation.
Laying the blame on parents, or assuming parents don't care, or aren't at their wits end, worried sick, having tried absolutely everything, is so stigmatising.

The fights were mostly a really bad mix of short fuse/impulsiveness, fucked up thinking and not wanting to appear weak/vulnerable. So if I got called names, or being poked and prodded , or had my hair pulled, or being tripped or whatever bullshit I just reacted. As I grew up (only had 2 fights from 14 to 17 and none after that) I first turned all that into self harming behaviours (drinking, cutting, dangerous/risky behaviours) first or punching walls/doors/lampposts in anger/frustration. A real turning point was at 13/14 when a really bad incident made me realise I have no fighting chance against the boys, especially if it's a lot of them. It was in my 20's (after moving countries and being completely out of the environment) that I started understanding myself more, recognising my triggers, learning appropriate coping mechanisms etc. and started healing.

I also don't hate my cousin anymore even if she still calls my mum "mummy".

I think, possibly, yes. I work in a school and have known one particular family for years, professionally at first, then personally when all the children had moved through school. The second boy is very unpleasant, while the other three and their parents are really lovely. Now, I have no idea what this boy has experienced, but I can remember when our boys were even at playgroup together, he was the one making the other children cry for one reason or another. He was a bully at school and was eventually permanently excluded for an attack on a teacher. His parents are at their wits end. But, we don't know what goes on with people really, do we.

I’d think very few are born bad, and I wouldn’t often think it’s solely parents either, I think it’s who they’re surrounded with, and school and peers. Kids can just be unlucky and I think they deserve a chance

Some children have never been told no and are used to getting their own way and what they want at home and will destroy other people's things or spoil things such as an a event if they haven't got it or it's not about them . These kids tend to go on to do well for themselves in the world of work or end up as career criminals. I believe most people fall in to two camps : takers or givers .

Most people are both throughout their lives depending on circumstances and the situation. Only being one is an extreme, not the norm.

I think it's a mix of both but yes personality disorders play a role. I worked in education for a long time but only one child stands out in my memory, his parents were extremely ineffective though

I largely agree with this.

I think family dynamics play a big part - for all those parents who say they’ve got X number of children and treated them all the same - did you really?

I’m the eldest of 3 and my experience growing up was different to my younger siblings, in terms of how loved I felt/opportunities etc. And how my parents confidence grew as parents as they went on to have more children IYSWIM.

And I see how it plays out with my own DC. The eldest picks up any stressors in family life etc before the younger siblings. They all think we favour the other etc…. Family life is complicated!